The Perfectionism Trap

Welcome to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We're your hosts, Dr.

Elizabeth Mackinbell and.

Cali Werner, both therapists and individuals that have navigated our own anxiety journeys.

Have you ever wondered how we became a society that is so defined by anxiety?

Tune in as we discuss, learn, and dive into what anxiety is, how we perpetuate it, and we can stop it.

This podcast will be real, raw, and unfiltered, just like the anxiety that plagues so many of us.

We are here to push boundaries, challenge the status quo, and deep dive into topics that are sure to make you uncomfortable.

If you're ready to step outside of your comfort zone and explore the unfiltered truth that will help you change your entire relationship with anxiety and get back to living your life, you're in the right place.

This is the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We live it and we contribute to it, and together we can change it.

And there's one thing that I need from you.

Can you come through?

Hello, listeners.

Welcome back to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We have a guest with us.

Well, a returning guest, Dr.

Emily Bailey.

And so diving in is going to be fun.

We're going to learn a lot.

Welcome, Emily.

Thanks for being back.

Yes, thanks for having me.

I'm excited to talk today.

Yeah, we're going to dive into all things perfectionism, so I think we'll call today the perfectionism trap and really just discuss how it plays a role in people's lives, in our own lives.

I think we need to be raw and vulnerable.

Listeners say they like the real life stories more than anything, so we'll do our best to dive into that, but we can't do that until we first share our anxious moment.

Do you have one, Emily?

If not, I can go first.

Well, I think this week has been actually kind of anxiety provoking for me in general.

This week, I have to make a decision about whether to break my lease for my apartment and move to a new area in town and essentially have a bigger space, which is fantastic, but it changes a lot of things.

It's packing to move in a month, so feeling some anxiety there about just a new place, new surroundings, and packing, which is just never fun.

Yeah, I know.

I feel like the past month my anxious moments were all related to moving.

So I understand.

I was just in that phase, kind of walking out of it a little bit.

And so I feel for you.

But also, you sent me pictures of your new place, and it's spacious and beautiful and so sounds like you're making a good call.

I'm excited.

It's going to be just a calming space, which is fantastic compared to current situation.

That's my anxious moment.

What's your anxious moment, Callie?

Yeah, mine.

So sometimes I try to listen to these podcast episodes after they're recorded to learn about how I can improve and do better.

I listened to today's episode on anxiety in couples, and that was with my husband.

There were some really cringey moments in there, things that he said or that I said where I was like, ooh, wish I would not have said that.

That brought on a lot of my own anxiety, and even just thoughts about, oh, goodness, what do other people think now that this was worded this way, and listeners just know that we're human and sometimes we missay things.

Sorry, I don't need reassurance or need validation here.

But all that to say, yeah, it was cringy.

It was cringy.

So my anxiety was heightened.

I feel better now.

But I will say I didn't fully lean into the exposure.

I got three fourths of the way in, and I was just like, I can't do it anymore.

Well, Callie, it sounds like we're gonna have to have a listening session together.

Yeah, we're just gonna have to sit with the cringe.

I don't know.

You guys are one of my favorite couples, so I am so excited you guys did a talk.

I got so excited when I saw him that he would be on here.

So, no, I loved it.

But I also love both of your vulnerability and genuineness, because I think that is part of having anxiety.

That's part of being a couple.

So I'm thinking that.

Not to reassure you, but I'm thinking people probably connect with you.

Well, thank you.

Much appreciated.

Much appreciated.

No, there were some definite lighthearted moments, and I know that was hard and vulnerable for both of us.

So at the end of the day, I am proud.

But it's hard to listen to yourself, period.

Right.

Much less you and your partner bicker on a podcast.

So it brings back grad school when you have to have your entire class watch you do therapy for one of the first times, and you're the worst.

Yes.

Trying to hide the whole time.

No.

So true.

So true.

Well, okay.

Anxious moments wrapped up.

Now we're going to dive into the topic of perfectionism.

So, Emily, maybe if you want to share a little bit about yourself after I kind of disclose how I know you and fill in any gaps, we'll go from there.

But Emily and I worked together at OCD Institute of Texas, and we do a lot of Talks together now on perfectionism.

And so I thought this would be so fitting for us to dive in and talk about something where used to presenting on together and have fun and laugh with it and take it a little less seriously.

Because sometimes when we add humor into the seriousness of anxiety, it can allow us to lean in a little bit more.

So that's how I know Emily.

She's an amazing friend of mine.

Unfortunately, she lives in Georgia nowadays.

Um, but a win for her, a loss for me, I guess.

Um, but yeah, want to.

Do you want to share a little bit about your background?

Things that I missed?

Yeah, so I previously worked at.

Well, I guess I still work there, but I previously was in Texas working at OCDI with Cali.

Since then, I have moved to Georgia.

That is my hometown.

That's where all my family is.

So I started my own private practice here where I treat anxiety and ocd.

Additionally, I teach as well.

So I love paying forward and teaching people what I love and helping people find passion in mental health and preventative measures.

So I love what I'm doing.

Also love doing research and data collection.

That's kind of my role now at ocdi, but that's a little bit about me.

Yeah, she's back.

Just virtually so, but it is exciting.

Okay, well, more listeners will get to know you as we dive into this topic, Emily, But I was wondering if maybe you could start us off by just defining perfectionism.

One, and then two, if you feel comfortable how.

How it's played a role in your own life or in.

You can use a case that you've worked with as well, if that's better.

Yeah.

So when I think about perfectionism, especially more normative perfectionism, I often think of this desire to achieve, this desire to prove yourself.

And I would say that healthy perfectionism really involves challenging yourself and setting realistic goals, while also simultaneously learning from the mistakes that you make in the process of trying to achieve something great.

And so not all perfectionism is bad in my mind.

I think perfectionism definitely is something that can motivate us to take leaps of faith and trust ourselves and do hard things.

But I am definitely a proud perfectionist.

And I think anyone who knows me knows I'm very perfectionistic.

Some people would say type A, and I embrace it.

And, you know, I'm thinking about times in my life where I've been a perfectionist, and that's always.

So it's kind of hard for me to think of one time.

Throughout graduate school, I feel like they just, like, trained me to Be perfectionistic.

Whether that was from saying that you make one wrong score or error, this could have a devastating effect on whoever you're treating.

You know, really instilling that in me, but also just in my journey.

Now I'm a professor, and I'm a very young professor, but I was lucky enough to get a tenure track position at my school, and I recently had to turn in my first tenure portfolio to be considered for reappointment in my third year.

And I'm telling you, my perfectionism made me procrastinate so so much doing this portfolio.

I was like, no, I can't do this.

Like, this won't be up to my standard.

Like, what if I uncover things about myself that I don't actually know?

Man, you should tell me to be your accountability partner, because you've definitely helped me get my budding gear with my dissertation.

So I know we'll just set times each week.

Maybe that's what we need with each other.

But that is one of the biggest things that I've struggled with recently with perfectionism is like, I have a high standard for myself, and that's challenging at times.

Yeah.

You brought up so many good points, though, about perfectionism, how it can lead to this, like, desire to achieve great things, but it can also lead to procrastination, fear of failure.

Right.

And need to want to avoid facing your own results or possibly your own podcast with your significant other.

But I think you bring up a good point, too, that there's a lot of perfectionistic tendencies that don't necessarily have to lead to a clinical problem.

And so, yeah, I would say I'm also a very type A individual, and I do like things a certain way.

And if they're not that way, I can tolerate it.

Which is kind of, for me, the answer.

Well, most of the time I can tolerate it, but for me, the answer that I'm in a healthy place with it.

But there's definitely been times where I haven't been in a healthy place with certain things.

I feel like it has to be done this way or I can't cope.

And I really had to look at that and learn to navigate that better.

And so I feel like that was a real human answer for perfectionism.

What about the, like, clinical answer for what perfectionism is in a treatment perspective?

Yeah, and I think you touched on it kind of a little when you started talking about this flexibility that you usually have when you're faced with situations where you feel like you need to perform to a certain degree.

Perfectionism can Be maladaptive.

Right.

I always say that people have different levels of perfectionism and they can have different levels of perfectionism in different domains of their life.

And I, I see this most, this more clinical perfectionism most when people are setting really extreme goals that are really unrealistic or when they set a goal and then they make a mistake and just become fixated on the mistake and can't move forward and internalize it in a way that's really self critical, where it actually ends up impacting their achievement and their well being rather than moving them forward toward their goal or toward their value.

Yeah.

And I have a hard time when perfectionism is so ingrained in a person.

Right.

Like it feels like it's a part of who they are.

Or often we talk about, you know, one of the differences between OCD or generalized anxiety and perfectionism is that perfectionism is more ecosyntonic.

Right.

Like it's a part, feels like a part of who they are.

It's something that they feel is helping them.

There isn't this desire to necessarily change it all the time.

And so how much of that when someone asks, well, if it's a part of my personality, how can I actually fix it?

How much do you feel that's a part of their personality and can they change it?

Yeah, I think that's a great question and I feel like my mind just went in four different places when you said that.

So I'm going to try and answer that concisely because I also kind of want to know your thoughts on this.

But I think it depends on the degree that that trait that they believe is a part of them is impacting their functioning.

Right.

So I mean, they may be achieving great things, but at what cost are they achieving the great things?

Are they defining their self worth only by their achievement or do they see themselves as more than just their achievements?

Are they able to put work down and go have drinks with their friends?

Or do they feel like there's no way they can end a task before it's finished to their standard?

I think it's questions more so about the adaptiveness and functionality of the actual trait rather than even like, this is a part of me.

A trait can be a part of you and be a little bit too much.

Yeah, it can definitely negatively impact other domains of your life.

So yeah, I think it's awesome when people feel like perfectionism helps them be motivated and helps them progress in the direction they want to, whether it's in their career, their family life, their friend with their Friends.

And we have to look at it as a whole.

I think we have to look at it in terms of what are you missing out on because of this trait potentially?

And if you're not missing out on anything, if it's not holding you back, maybe that is something to be embraced.

Yeah, I know.

I totally agree.

And I think that there's a lot to say about making something your identity, whether it's success, whether it's a sport or a mom.

Right.

It's a part of who you are, but it doesn't have to be all of who you are.

And when we make something all of who we are, I think the pressure's too much.

I think that we're setting ourselves up to fail because as humans, we're made to be diverse in a lot of ways.

Wearing different hats, having different hobbies.

And if we put everything into one piece, how could we be watering other.

Our other plants or our other jars or the.

I can't think of the analogy I want to use for.

But, you know, I like the analogy you use.

I mean, and I think you're so right.

It's.

We're complex as humans.

Right.

We're complex people, and sometimes we neglect the other roles or identifications in our life if that means we're going to achieve something.

And I think that's something that I personally struggled with quite a bit, especially leaving graduate school.

And then I was a doctor.

And there's something to be so proud of when you reach this huge milestone.

And I simultaneously realized that I had spent so much of my energy attaining this doctorate and learning and growing that I had let the other domains of my life slip quite a bit.

Yeah.

And I had to redefine myself as more than just a clinical psychologist.

Like, who else am I?

Right?

Yeah, that's.

That's my dissertation in a nutshell, is on the post Olympic blues.

And when we chase something, I often feel like I'm doing this.

I'm chasing this high of an achievement, and I crave achieving, and it's something that keeps me going.

But if I don't have a healthy balance with it, it's at a loss of other things that I value and care about.

And that's really hard to look at because, yeah, I could do better, do more, be more successful with my work, but at a cost of being a person, I don't want to be at home.

And sometimes I can catch myself getting stuck in that perfectionism trap of trying to be this person that I'm setting my standards to, but realizing really, if I slow down and look at it, that's not who I want to be.

It's not worth that cost for me.

And I had the take a long look in the mirror for my last big marathon race by asking myself, is it worth the cost of everything?

Like, at one point in my life it was, right.

Because I was competing at a collegiate level, trying to compete post collegiately, and I wanted to give it above and beyond.

I wasn't married, I didn't have kids or 13 dogs or whatever you might want to say.

But I can honestly say now it's not worth that cost for me.

And if I tried to make it worth that cost, something else would falter.

Yeah.

It's not worth my peace of mind if all I'm spending my energy on is achieving something.

Yeah, totally.

So what are the most common mental health issues you see linked to perfectionism?

You know, I actually see a lot of different ones that are linked to perfectionism, which makes this really tricky.

I think perfectionism is considered this trans diagnostic mechanism, which I feel like is such an intense word to say.

Yeah.

But it's this mechanism that underlies many disorders and that maintains many disorders.

And so I think research actually shows that there is quite a bit of perfectionism and many different disorders.

So personally, I specialize as, you know, in anxiety and ocd.

So my first thought is research shows that, number one, perfectionism is correlated with and a positive predictor of developing an anxiety disorder or developing depression.

And that is something to sit with.

Right.

I'm not saying that having a little bit of perfectionism is going to cause you to have anxiety, but it's something that we need to look out for because perfectionism could actually be what maintains the actual symptoms you experience.

It's the same with something like OCD.

Perfectionism can 100% be a maintaining factor in compulsions.

Right.

And I'm sure you've seen this before where a patient wants to complete a compulsion perfectly or to a just right feeling or do something in a perfect sequence.

And I think I see perfectionism so much in anxiety and OCD and depression.

Not feeling good enough.

Right.

Not meeting your standard and feeling guilty or shameful because you didn't.

Those are the main ones that I think of just off the top of my head.

I don't know if you see something similar or different.

Yeah.

I would say the only thing I would add is in eating disorders too.

I feel like it shows up a lot.

I just did a talk at an eating disorder clinic and they were sharing with Me because I don't specialize in eating disorders, but it seems like a very common theme with eating disorders as well.

So then how.

Let's kind of break it back down to just general listeners that may not be struggling with an anxiety disorder, but have some tendencies of perfectionism.

How do we see it contributing to procrastination and imposter syndrome?

And maybe you take procrastination, I'll take imposter syndrome and we'll tag team.

Oh gosh, yeah.

I feel like we're going to have to tag team this because I feel like I still experiencing imposter syndrome on a daily basis.

So perfectionism, again, that's the setting really high standards for oneself.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing unless like, this is something that is not attainable.

Right.

It's something that we're really self critical about.

When I think about imposter syndrome, that's really when it's a pattern of a person having doubts in oneself about their accomplishments and a persistent fear of being exposed, exposed as an imposter or as like incompetent in an area that they find really important in their life.

I think a lot of this, when I think about both perfectionism and imposter syndrome, there's a lot of cognitive distortions in my mind where it's like a minimization of success is what comes to my mind the most.

I think individuals who are perfectionistic tend to minimize their successes or if they don't minimize the success, they attribute it to luck or something external or they say something very similar to, well, anyone could do that.

So I shouldn't be like too excited about it.

So I think if I were to understand the relationship or try to understand the relationship between perfectionism and imposter syndrome, I would say that perfectionism may actually fuel imposter syndrome.

Perfectionism involves, right.

That unrealistic expectation that leads people to feel like they don't measure up.

And I think that's a lot about imposter syndrome as well.

So let me give an example of how this maybe has happened in my own life and tell me if this falls in line with what you're saying.

I all the pressure when I started this career.

I'm going to give Liz a shout out, who's on maternity leave, by the way, listeners.

She's had two healthy babies and so she's not with us this episode.

But I was her grad assistant in my master's program and she had already been in the field for a while, was doing all these amazing things.

And I remembered in the back of my mind saying, gosh, I want to be able to do some of that.

Within a year of graduating, I was thinking to myself, but why am I not doing those things yet?

What am I doing wrong?

To not be at a place where I am doing these kinds of talks and engaging in all these things, it was not like a I deserve this.

It was like a what am I doing wrong?

It's critical.

Right, right.

And I had this imposter syndrome feeling of like, well, I can't amount to that because I, for some reason, am not doing enough.

And so I feel like that hit on the perfectionism, imposter syndrome piece a little bit.

Yeah.

And, you know, I think I could honestly, I say that imposter syndrome is fueled by perfectionism.

After you said that, I'm actually pretty curious as to whether.

And hey, whoever wants to do research on this, reach out to me.

But whether perfectionism and imposter syndrome, if it's a two way street.

So what I mean by that is, does it bidirectionally influence each other?

I think that imposter syndrome could increase perfectionistic habits because maybe someone does feel like a fraud.

Maybe they do feel like they're not capable or good enough, and because of that, they work hard, harder to look more competent, to try and do better, to get more gigs, to do more things, to get on more papers.

So my question to you, Callie, is like, did you end up working harder?

I did, yeah.

No, I would say that mine's more of the.

Gosh, you use some really academic language there.

Bidirectionally connected.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I said two way street first, but then I got nerdy.

I like two way street.

Yeah, it's a two way street.

Right.

Does perfectionism impact imposter syndrome?

And then does the reverse also happen?

Does imposter syndrome actually fuel perfectionism to some degree too?

Right, right.

Yeah.

And I think it.

It totally does from my own personal experience.

I'm not speaking from a clinical study though, but yeah, our listeners should dive in and let us know their thoughts on the answer to that question, because I think it's really good and it leads us to kind of critically thinking about the situation as a whole.

What about with physical aspects?

Can perfectionism be so intense or so bad that there's negative physical consequences of it?

You know, I'm sure there is.

I think when I think of perfectionism, I often think of a higher level of stress or more consistent level of stress.

Right.

So if we're thinking about just our bodies.

If we're in a constant state of stress, our immune system is going to be impacted.

Maybe we're more likely to get sick.

Maybe we have digestive issues like upset stomach, stomach ulcers.

But I don't know to what degree perfectionism has to get to for that stuff to occur.

I mean, I think perfectionists definitely could struggle with some, some issues.

And I don't know if you've seen any physical health issues in relation to it.

Yeah, no.

I think too the sleep piece is probably one that most listeners relate to.

Right.

Because we've all had this big event or activity happening at some point that we've been so nervous about or don't want to mess up on.

And it can just keep you up at night.

And I want to give one of my favorite activities that I really think can be helpful for this anticipatory anxiety or high expectations one has on themselves.

If you write your name on a piece of paper in the middle and then you ask yourself what are the adjectives or ways people would describe me that are not based off of my success?

So for example, you couldn't put state champion.

You couldn't put all A's.

You'd have to put things like funny or engaging or caring.

You could put athletic over state champion.

You could put knowledgeable over all A's.

Uh, and then asking yourself after this big event that you're so nervous about and you're anticipating, would all of these things still be true about you regardless of the results?

And I just feel like that's such a mic drop moment.

Right.

Because I think that's so powerful.

Right, right.

And it seems like something we would do in at for a fifth grader.

But I almost feel like every adult in America needs to do this right now because.

Yeah, yeah.

So I still love to do that when I have a really hard event coming up.

Because I think we often forget that our results aren't what make us who we are.

And it takes five minutes.

And I think it's really hard for us to remember that we're so, so capable of dealing with failure and dealing with not meeting our expectation.

And one thing that I do similar.

No, it's not similar to that.

I really like that.

But it's like a bounce back box where it's like you, you create cards or little like strips of paper that about a time when you failed or you didn't live up to your own expectation and how you bounced back from it.

And it like also adds that success of like you Know what?

Sometimes my success is dependent on me learning from failing.

That's so good.

So you call it a bounce back box.

Yeah, bounce back box.

I like it because then it reminds you that you have handled hard things before, so why couldn't you handle it again?

Yeah.

And that this whole thing, all, all that we're going through, trying to achieve more, it's making us more resilient, it's making us bounce back just in ways that we don't always expect.

So true.

So true.

Yeah, that's really powerful.

I really love that.

So then let's talk about the thing that we knew was coming, social media, and how that plays into the perfectionism, especially in younger generations.

And I'm really excited about this part of the topic because I think it's so interesting how, like, how does perfectionism even come about?

And we'll get into that too.

But social media, Emily, how is perfectionism rooted in social media?

Gosh, how is it not?

I think that's actually the question we need to ask.

I think social media is just a force in and of itself.

I think social media allows us to show the side of us that is most likable, that is most achieving, that has the best life and, you know, part of perfectionism, while it can target specific domains, sometimes we just want to be perceived as having a quote, unquote perfect life.

And I think social media offers us opportunity where we can decide and pick and choose what aspects of our life we share with others.

Yeah, I love that.

At my church they talked about this moment where you get together in a group and everybody discusses something that they feel is almost unlovable about them.

And the things that people said that they had been holding so closely to themselves because they felt like others would not accept them were mind blowingly common.

And I think that is what is so dangerous about social media is because we start to feel like, well, if people knew the other side that's not posted on social media, that would be unacceptable, when in reality that's part of what makes you lovable.

And we choose not to show that enough because, let us face it, teens, and I do not know the exact statistic, but they are in their homes more hours than ever before.

Whereas kids before this used to, before the social media used to play outside all the time, do silly dumb things, get into trouble, and now they're sitting inside on their phones, not allowing others to see that part of them themselves.

Right.

And so of course they're going to think that anything that's not perfect is unacceptable.

Which is so scary.

It is scary.

And it's this idea of comparison.

I think you are more readily able to compare yourself to others if it's like right on your phone.

Mm.

Right.

And like it's the scrolling.

It's an addictive like, thing to do.

It's hard to stop it.

Especially when you're so young and your, your brain isn't even fully developed.

Like you're just impulsive.

You're a teen.

You want to do things that are fun.

And that is how people connect now.

And I don't know if it's the truest form of connection if we can't show the mistakes we make or the hard things that we have to face.

Because I think that makes you more genuine and vulnerable as a person to share the good things, the hard things, and everything in between.

Yeah, yeah.

And it builds character and confidence.

Right.

And it makes for real relationships.

I think one of the most painful things is when you have these.

I mean, we might all have experienced a relationship like this, but like these superficial relationships where you don't talk about more than the surface level.

And that's hard.

And there's a lot more happiness that can come from deeper connection.

Sharing in hurts.

Right.

Making mistakes.

Making mistakes and then seeking forgiveness and going through that process with somebody else.

Right.

All of those things lead to greater understanding for ourselves and others.

But also this ability to recognize we're more than just our successes or our outcomes of greatness.

Imagining your self worth is based on those likes that you get.

And like, what if you don't get a like for posting something hard and difficult and feeling that rejection?

Fear of rejection also probably maintains this perfectionistic tendency.

Right.

Of this need to put out the best parts of me and hide the parts that feel less perfect.

Yeah.

Seriously.

Have you ever seen Black Mirror?

I've seen a few episodes.

I feel like there's gotta be an episode like this.

I know it's really dark, but it's about like these future things that could happen in the world.

If so, you know, if this is an area that's very triggering for you anxiety wise, it might be an exposure at some point.

But I just feel like there's gotta be an episode of Black Mirror.

Like this dystopian world where people get likes for the good things and that they do in life that are like portrayed on TV everywhere, that would be terrifying.

But you know, to talk about, like, I feel like we'll probably have a lot of parents listening to today's episode and I feel like oftentimes when we recognize our own patterns of unhelpful behavior, we worry about how this is going to carry over into our kids.

And so I think it would be really helpful to just talk about where perfectionism come from.

Comes from.

And it's not a clear cookie cutter answer, but I think we can give some insights into that and maybe go back and forth on it.

So I'm going to talk about the parental piece and then, Emily, you add something and we go back and forth.

But I think one of the things that we know can lead to some perfectionism is parental expectations and praises.

So if a child grows up in this environment where love or approval feels conditional on achievement, they may internalize that belief and come to this conclusion that mistakes are unacceptable.

Right.

And that's like, not to say I think all parents do this at times.

Right?

Like, I'm so proud of you.

And when a kid does something great, you would want them to feel excited about an achievement.

Right.

But when it feels conditional, like the opposite of, well, when you don't achieve these great things, I'm not proud of you.

That's where I think parents can shift and make some, some changes.

I love that because I think it's also hitting on this idea of reinforcing or rewarding the success versus hard work over time.

Oh, can you explain that a little more?

So it's this idea of like, we are trying, we're like, reinforcing the outcome, the success, the achievement.

I'm so proud of you because you achieve your doctorate.

I'm so proud of you because you won this race versus, you know, I've been so proud of you this month for working really hard and putting running first.

I love that, like all the hours of studying, I've been so proud of you for doing that.

And like, look where you are now.

Your dedication to this, like the experience that they're going through to get to whatever outcome.

Right.

That's so good.

Exactly.

Yeah.

No, I agree.

And I think that, like, it's almost human nature for us to do the other.

Right.

So I don't think listeners should harp on themselves if they've been doing the other.

I think most of us do that.

And it takes hard work to get to a place where we say, okay, I am going to focus on the process, not always focus on the outcome.

And I think that's been the most.

Meaningful, like, reinforcement or like feedback I've gotten from my dad or from other people that I really care about.

It's not even the end, go goal that I wanted to be noticed.

It was.

I worked really hard to get here, and it's like someone else being able to point out all the things you did to get where you are.

I think that you can internalize a little bit more as.

Wow, I actually did do a lot.

I actually really can't minimize this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So true.

Because I think, too, the.

The alternative is, like, someone that's critical and controlling over an individual.

We would imagine.

Yeah.

That's gonna lead to some perfectionism.

Right.

Like setting these unrealistic expectations on someone can instill this fear that I can't fail.

So that.

That wouldn't be helpful.

Or only praising someone for being the best versus.

Yeah, going back to that.

That process overall, also traumatic or unstable.

Environments definitely leads to just harsh parenting in general.

Like, I think I was just recently reading about some research that shows that harsh parenting, meaning parenting that doesn't come from an understanding perspective, that you really tear into the kid for messing up or making a mistake.

That tends to lead or be predictive of more maladaptive perfectionism.

Yeah.

And I hope, too, because I think often as humans, what we do is we say, oh, no, I can't be harsh.

So then we tend to go to the opposite extreme, and we're so gentle.

And I think that we've got to be somewhere in the middle with that.

Right, right.

I think it's holding accountability for somebody and recognizing how hard it is to fail.

You did it again.

What a quote.

I love it.

Yeah.

So what about, like, genetics?

Do you think genetics plays a role in that?

Could you speak to that at all?

I mean, I think it definitely could play a role.

I think some people do have family members as well who have this tendency towards perfectionism.

I think we often see it in families.

If I work with a kiddo, I know that someone probably in the family has a tendency toward perfectionism, a tendency even towards other personality traits that are close to perfectionism.

So when I think of perfectionism, some other personality traits that come to mind that could be more genetic is like conscientiousness.

Right.

This idea of really wanting to be reliable, really wanting to be there, get things done in an efficient way.

And neuroticism.

I know neuroticism is pretty highly genetic, and neuroticism really is kind of.

It's.

It's more of the rigidity, I think.

Right.

Well, yeah, anxiety, even.

We know anxiety has a genetic component, and if someone has more anxiety, they're more likely to have some tendencies of perfectionism.

But it's that classic Question that we have in psychology of like, what is it?

Is it environment?

Is it genetics?

What's happening?

And think about.

And living in an environment where another potential family member may have perfectionistic tendencies, you also see that modeled.

Right.

You also see their behaviors modeled.

And so part of me wonders, just like if we see a parent, our parent get anxious over seeing a wasp.

Right.

We're more likely to also feel that anxiety and model their same behavior.

I also wonder if it's just us doing kind of what our parents did.

Yeah.

Or other family members, siblings, grandparents.

Yeah.

That learned behavior.

For sure.

For sure.

Or even there's definitely some cultures that are more achievement oriented.

Right.

And so even just societal norms can lead to some of those perfectionistic tendencies we've talked about, like the social media comparison pressures that one receives in a work environment or so even just the society that they work in could lead to some of those tendencies and can be really hard.

And I was thinking more too, just about this, like how you get someone who is really struggling with perfectionism to buy in, per se, to working on it.

And I was going to ask you, how can we do that when someone feels like this is bringing them success?

Because I have a few strategies, but I'd love to hear your approach on that in particular.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes I think it can be difficult because it is something that motivates us.

And I think part of getting buy in is talking about the positives.

Like, why is this working for you?

Tell me all about it.

Because if I come in to a session and I tell my patient, yeah.

So clearly this does not work and it's ruining your life, I think they're going to automatically put guards up.

Yeah.

I want to understand what they think is helpful about perfectionism.

Like, tell me everything, because clearly this is important to you in some way.

So I want to approach it from like a curiosity standpoint versus a we need to get rid of this standpoint.

Because I don't think we need to get rid of this trait.

I think perfectionism is so important, but I think we need to temper it if it is negatively impacting their life.

So it's.

Once I kind of talk to them about what are the positives, what are the things you love about it?

Like, who else have you seen that you really look up to, who tends to have this quality.

Right.

Really digging into the positives, then I'm like, well, can we talk about possibly the opposite end of things?

How it can be hard.

Yeah.

Because I think oftentimes it's family Members that are the ones that are saying, I need my loved one to see you.

Because they're so inflexible, they're so rigid, they can't adjust to change or they feel like they're doing everything right and we're doing everything wrong.

And when we start treatment like that, of course the person's going to be resistant.

And so I think it's more about educating, educating them and having them kind of go through this process of.

I love what you said.

Approaching it curiously.

Right.

Like asking them, well, how is this impacting your life?

And sometimes I even.

I love visuals.

So I'll get like a dry erase board, draw a line down the middle and I will have one side that says values and one side that says perfectionism's values.

And so they might value success, but perfectionism values 100% certainty.

Their perfectionism wants to make them read an assignment over 20, 30 times, whereas their values are to have success where you can't also be successful and miss an assignment deadline.

This is just one of many examples because you're trying so hard to turn something in or getting behind on other assignments because you can't get this one assignment to this perfect place.

I really like to show them that perfectionism and your values when perfectionism.

I like how you said it's an unhealthy zone.

They can't exist together.

Right.

Like they, they counteract each other.

And I love what you're saying because I think what you're trying to say is we're shifting from achieving perfection or achieving this high goal to pursuing meaningful values.

Yes.

And really focusing on what matters to us.

Even if it's done and perfectly.

Yeah.

I love to have them say, at what cost?

At what cost am I willing to do this particular thing?

Am I willing to give all these other things up?

And the answer is usually no.

Because we don't just want 100 on one assignment.

We want to be the president of the company or we want to do something else, which is great.

But we can't give this full thing that full attention or full perfectionism because we can't also achieve what it means to be balanced and all of that.

And so some practical strategies for managing perfectionism is what I think we can just wrap up today's session with almost like a rapid fire approach.

And I know we've spoken about some, so we'll summarize those together first and then maybe add a few more.

But one I think is if you're struggling with some anticipation of an event and you're really afraid of failing, Remember those characteristics about yourself that aren't tied into the results that can really bring some of that anxiety down, give you some insight into the situation, and allow you to use the skills that you have without having the anxiety take away from your experience.

Right.

And I think it also to bounce off of that involves breaking away from that self criticism and the fears of failure and embracing who you actually are as a person.

Because you're not just an achievement.

Part of it involves recognizing your humanity and the imperfection that comes with being human and cultivating compassion about that and about the difficulty of not achieving what you want and the beauty when you do.

Yeah, yeah.

And then asking yourself what your values truly are.

Right.

So you can get a list of 150 values for free on Google.

If you just Google it and try to go through that and make each value an action.

So I would encourage you to pick your top five.

And maybe it is success, maybe it is happiness, and maybe it is creativity.

You need to make all of those words an action.

So cultivating success, pursuing happiness, and nurturing my creativity.

And then you've got your three values right there.

And are you watering those, or is your perfectionism getting in the way of that?

And if it's getting in the way of that, I think it's important to take a hard look at some of the things that need changing.

And if that is the case, if you notice, okay, I do need some changes here.

Could you benefit from doing some behavior therapy where a provider can hold you accountable to that and some cognitive behavioral work?

Um, and I think the only other.

Thing I would add to that is just like embracing this growth mindset.

It's so easy to see us all at a static position in our lives.

It's so easy for us to believe that we're not capable of getting through really tough challenges if we embrace a growth mindset.

Instead of hearing the phrases, I'm a failure, I suck, I'm stupid, I can't believe I couldn't do this.

What if we said I couldn't do this right now?

I wasn't capable today, but I can improve.

I think also just having that growth mindset of like, just because I failed once doesn't mean I'm failing forever.

That's not who.

That's not what defines me.

I love that.

Yeah.

Staying away from those absolute statements for sure.

Exactly.

Amazing.

Well, Emily, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

It's always a pleasure to have you and I'm sure, sure you'll be back.

Any final thoughts or statements?

Really?

I just want people to take a pause and think about what's important to them.

And that's not always going to be what anxiety and perfectionism says is important.

Love it.

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