Q & A

Welcome to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We're your hosts, Dr.

Elizabeth Mackinbell and.

Cali Werner, both therapists and individuals that have navigated our own anxiety journeys.

Have you ever wondered how we became a society that is so defined by anxiety?

Tune in as we discuss, learn, and dive into what anxiety is, how we perpetuate it, and how we can stop it.

This podcast will be real, raw, and unfiltered, just like the anxiety that plagues so many of us.

We are here to push boundaries, challenge the status quo, and deep dive into topics that are sure to make you uncomfortable.

If you're ready to step outside of your comfort zone and explore the unfiltered truth that will help you change your entire relationship with anxiety and get back to living your life, you're in the right place.

This is the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We live it, we contribute to it, and together we can change it.

And there's one thing that I need from you.

Can you come through?

Welcome back to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

Today's episode is my favorite Q.

And as everyone knows, I love just answering questions and also getting to go through a lot of different topics in a more quick timeframe.

Yeah, Q and A.

We try to do it once a month, at least every three to four episodes.

Ish.

And we always hope that you submit your questions so we can answer them live.

As always, though, we have to start every episode with our anxious moment.

So, Callie, I'll let you go first.

Yeah, I think I've.

I'm gonna have to talk about my dogs again.

I found.

Well, a week ago, we decided that we were going to bring our dogs to an outdoor restaurant.

Some of the puppies that needed to be adopted, that we've found the mom strolling our neighborhood, she had a litter of puppies.

Our house has been full of dogs, and the last two got adopted.

And I was so excited.

And then the very next day, we went on a walk.

I think people, friends, and family are like, you guys just go out looking for those dogs.

And I am like, I promise we do not.

We were on our normal route walk, and we ran into two more puppies that were, like, sitting on a piece of styrofoam.

And I told my husband I was trying to convince him that there's another mom dog around that's taking care of them.

And he was like, but they're going to freeze tomorrow.

Because you could tell they were in back.

The freeze was coming.

Yeah, the freeze was coming.

And so, yeah, I thought we were, like, empty nesters of our house.

And we're not.

So we're back at it, taking care of two more little puppies, and eventually we'll bring them to a restaurant and hopefully get them adopted, too.

Oh, my goodness.

But that brought me some anxiety because I was kind of getting excited about, okay, we're going to be able to travel on weekends again and do all these things.

And I've told listeners who have listened to our podcast before, it's not really a thing to ask someone to watch 10 to 13 dogs when you go out of town.

So, yeah, I just feel a little more stuck.

Like, you're back in the.

Back in the grind.

It's like having a newborn.

Yeah, you're stuck.

You're trapped here.

You are.

Yeah, you can say that because you have had kids.

I feel like I can't say that because I haven't had kids, but I feel like it's gotta prepare me to some degree.

Oh, 100% anxious moment.

So I actually was talking to you about this yesterday, Callie, but I feel so.

I'm in the stage of pregnancy where I'm just so uncomfortable.

I'm so miserable.

All the above and grateful.

It's a blessing.

All of that can happen at the same time.

And I feel like I'm just complaining all the time.

And so I feel anxiety about wanting to have a better attitude right now and wanting to be more upbeat, but then feeling like I keep saying that and then I'm not, because I don't feel good physically and I'm uncomfortable, and it's very hard to not have this negative attitude.

So I don't know.

I feel like I've just been a little bit anxious of, like, okay, how do I shift my perspective?

Because usually I can find ways to shift my perspective when there's a tough thing going on or like, you're not feeling 100% like you can still find some positive.

And I feel like I'm trying, but the physical sensations are stopping me from doing so appropriately.

So anyway, it just makes me anxious because I don't like being negative.

Like, I don't, you know, like, I have a little bit of anxiety of feeling like I don't want to be the person that's always complaining or always making it about them or always talking about these things.

And that's what I've been feeling like for the past couple weeks.

So.

Because I feel like people that worry about that are actually ones that don't do that a lot.

Maybe.

Do you have more insight about it?

Maybe you have more insight that we're at least, like, I don't want to be that.

Yeah.

Because I had a similar anxious moment a little while ago.

I had a series of unfortunate events happening in my life, and it was just kind of dramatized.

Dramatized?

Yeah, dramatized.

It wasn't all that bad.

But I was just in a place where life wasn't fun at the moment.

And I kind of got in my head about, like, gosh, people are asking how I am that I'm close to.

Obviously, I'm not going to share with people that I'm not close to how things are going.

And I just do not have positive things to say.

Life's really hard right now.

And I started adding it up in my head.

Like, I don't like that I'm doing this as much.

Did you feel like I was a negative person during that time?

No.

Yeah.

And I knew that.

I know that's your answer, but to me, I felt like, gosh, I'm so negative, I don't want to be around this.

So let's actually start there with our Q and A.

And I'll throw the first question, which is just like, how do you manage that?

So when you feel like you are becoming someone you don't want to be, or you don't like language you're using, or you don't like the Persona that you're kind of creating in that moment around friends or family, how do we make a shift?

Because this is actually a really important tool for depression.

Individuals who struggle with depression will say things like, yeah, but I don't think I feel up for doing something different.

I feel depressed.

It is really real and we want to validate that.

Yes, this is real.

I can't ignore the fact that I'm in pain right now.

I feel uncomfortable.

That is real.

And what can I do to move through that?

Yeah, I think it's an equation.

I think it's a balance of self compassion, grace, and behavior change.

I think you have to incorporate all of those things, and if you incorporate too much of one, it's not gonna go well.

It has to be the perfect equation of it.

Think about it.

If you're engaging in so much self compassion around it, oh, it's okay.

I'm so validated in these feelings.

Like, it's okay that it's this hard.

All you're gonna do is continue complaining and not feel better.

Right.

That's not going to be helpful versus okay.

But if you only engage in behavior change and every time you catch yourself slipping up, beat yourself down, you're not Gonna feel better either, right?

Yeah.

So I think it's a balance when.

We talk about validation clinically or when we talk about a supportive statement.

We always say a supportive statement is plus confidence equals support.

And so you think about this and you really want to put it into your own life too, Right.

It's okay to validate that.

Like, okay, I don't feel 100%.

And I know that there's been other times in my life I didn't feel 100%, and I was still able to do things right and move on.

And so.

And you build yourself up, and then it's like, okay, now I can go do this versus I feel bad, hard.

Stop.

It's like, no, okay.

Like, you could, like.

And you don't have to also be like, okay, I'm going to pretend like I don't feel bad, because that's also not right.

It's like, yeah, I feel bad.

And there's been a lot of times in my life where I haven't felt great and I still did things, and they were still enjoyable.

Yeah.

And I think this question from one of our listeners goes really well with this as well.

And probably something you could answer from a personal perspective with where life is for you right now or clinically.

But could you talk about guilt and productivity, feeling like you should have used your time better, or always feeling like you should accomplish more?

Also, this relates to giving yourself permission to rest and struggles around that.

Yeah.

This is such a good question, because I think that our world, and we know this, actually, like, if you look at the way Americans live versus other countries, like, America is this kind of rat race.

Right.

And so there is this, like, constant feeling that a lot of us feel of, like, we should be doing more, we're not doing enough.

Like, why haven't we finished this?

Why haven't we accomplished this Versus can we have this balance?

And we've talked about on the episode before where I've talked about how, for me, I know something that I actually should really give up is phone use at night.

Because I end up scrolling aimlessly being on my phone, and I do not feel good about it.

It makes me feel unproductive.

Yet if I were to watch a TV show, if Matt and I were to sit down and watch a show together, which we actually did this weekend, it is still not necessarily any more productive from, okay, did I organize the closet?

Or something like that stance.

But it feels much more productive because I'm connecting with Matt.

Right.

Like, we're watching a show together.

We're enjoying time together.

We're talking about it, we're laughing, whatever is going on versus I'm disconnected on my phone.

And so I think that it is okay to kind of sit back and say to yourself, what are some things that I do that don't make me feel good?

Right.

Like, it is okay to do some self reflection.

It's helpful, actually.

An evaluation of what actually brings me down versus builds me up.

What are friendships that, you know, really, like, drain my tank versus fill my tank.

What are activities that do the same at the same time?

If you are constantly comparing yourself, and I think that's one of the biggest things that happens for young moms, for anybody, is this comparison of, well, they're doing more like they're managing this and they maintain their health really well, or they do this and they do that and I'm not, so I'm failing.

You're gonna constantly feel stuck.

And so it's really about what for yourself.

Can you say, this actually brings me down?

I wanna make a change here.

And can you allow yourself at relaxation as something that's productive?

Yeah.

I love this question and this topic so much.

And I feel like I talk to a lot of my young, perfectionistic athletes about this often because they have this mindset of, well, any free chance I get, I should be dribbling the ball.

I should be practicing some of my skills.

And we talk about the importance of incorporating fun into everyday life and how that actually can make you more successful in sport indirectly.

Right.

And so I love how you said, well, you're connecting with Matt when you are watching tv.

It's not that you're just watching TV and letting time pass, looking at how that's productive through a different lens.

Exactly.

And if you spend 247 engaging in that one activity, like working to get to the top of the food chain at your business, or trying to study so that you're the valedictorian, but you're not filling your other tanks.

Exactly.

That's gonna fall off.

I was just thinking about that as you're saying that, like, one thing on my to do list is I really have been wanting to clean out my closet.

And I keep saying to myself, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it.

And I just don.

Um, last night I did, like, one part, like, four things.

Um, but I could choose to, like, go clean out my closet instead of watching a show with Matt.

And honestly, I might feel like that was more productive, but it would actually be detrimental to the relationship.

Right.

Because Matt's viewpoint is like, why is the closet important versus us spending time together?

Right.

And so, again, everything in life is a choice and a balance.

And you have to understand that if you choose to be super productive or efficient here, you're giving up somewhere else.

Right?

And so how do you balance what your needs are?

Y.

You guys have heard me talk about my running and my relationship that I used to have with it, where I would have to get up and go for a run, and I always felt productive after I did it, and I actually craved that productivity to an unhealthy degree, and it became a coping skill that I relied on, that I needed.

And I realized I don't want to have to rely on any one thing to help me get better.

Right.

We need a toolbox of different coping skills to help us in different unique moments.

And so I had to really work on recognizing that it was more productive sometimes for me to just, like, take the dogs to the dog park and let them run around and play and watch them and fill my tank in that way.

And it's made me love my relationship with exercise so much more.

Because I don't have to have it.

Exactly.

And that's the key, right?

The key for anxiety treatment, the key for distress tolerance, is not that we're teaching you to never do things again or to never be anxious or to never, like, have urgency, because that's not reality.

Right.

Sometimes it's like, no, we have to get out the door.

We got to get to church on time, or we have to get the kids, whatever.

But it's about, can it be a balance, right?

Can we live our life where, you know someone.

We were.

I was talking with someone recently about how we don't wear shoes in our house, and they were saying, yeah, but, like, would you, like.

So, you know, you want me to do exposures of, like, wearing shoes on the floor?

But would you do that?

And my answer is like, absolutely.

Like, we might not wear shoes in our house, but if someone does, I'm not triggered by it.

Right.

Preference.

Exactly.

So can you get to the point where you're still gonna have preferences?

You still should if you love to run or go on walks.

Like, we still want you to love to run and to go on a walk, but it's very different when it's able.

When you're able to have it be a loving relationship and a preference versus it's a requirement, it's a rule.

It's rigid.

Right.

For sure.

All right.

Such a good question.

How do you manage imposter syndrome.

And I'm gonna plug that real quick.

We have an episode on Imposter syndrome is exactly what it's called.

We recorded in October of 2024 with Ro Gonzalez.

So, number one, check that out.

Yes, definitely check it out.

Managing imposter syndrome.

You know, it's funny because I think the way to manage it is to move through it, right?

So you're going to feel like an imposter at so many different times in your life, right?

Like, I'm about to have my third and fourth kid, and I feel like an imposter right now of, like, do I know how to take care of an infant?

Like, do we know what to do, Matt?

Oh, my gosh.

Because it's been a couple years, which, like, yes, we know what to do.

And even if we didn't when we had our first.

You're going to figure it out, right?

But it wouldn't be fair to sit there and say, oh, I'm going to know everything, and everything's going to go perfect, and I'm not going to have any hiccups.

It's much better for me to be like.

Like, I probably know enough, and what I don't know, I'll figure out, right?

And I know it's not going to be great.

And I know that that's okay, right?

That's how I'm going to learn and grow.

And so I think that what's really important with imposter syndrome is sometimes when we have these feelings of, like, we're not enough or we're not capable, we try to lie to ourself and convince ourself of something totally different, like, oh, we're totally capable or it's totally fine, versus being able to acknowledge that, like, oh, actually, that's okay.

I don't feel totally capable, and I'll learn that, right?

I think about this.

Like, you and I talk about this all the time, but here at the clinic, we have learned so much about insurance, right.

That we didn't know two, three years ago because we weren't dealing with insurance that much as clinicians, where when you move more into the admin side, you're dealing a lot with insurance.

Many times where we both still get anxious and we don't know what's happening, and we're trying to figure it out.

And guess what?

It sucks in that moment to feel like, am I doing something wrong?

Oh, my gosh, why am I in charge of this?

I don't know what to do yet after you feel more confident, because now you know how to do it and walk through it.

So I think my feedback is, like, managing imposter syndrome is the same as anxiety.

It's being able to acknowledge that, oh, yeah, it is here.

My anxiety is here.

I feel uncomfortable.

Here's why.

And I can do hard things and move through it.

You don't manage anxiety, you guys, by getting rid of it.

Yeah.

And I think that's the biggest fallacy.

Right.

So many people think I want to live with no anxiety.

I want to have freedom from anxiety.

And when they hear me talking about freedom from anxiety and ocd, they think that means no anxiety.

Where?

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm not saying you're not going to have anxiety, but I'm saying you're free from it in the sense that it doesn't have to be disruptive to your life.

Yeah, well.

And I think if we were going to code that in imposter syndrome language, we would be saying, I'll do this activity when I feel ready.

Yes.

You're never gonna feel fully ready, because part of feeling ready is doing the activity and learning as you go.

Totally.

Yeah.

And think about it with anything.

Like, for all of you, think about something that kind of makes you cringe.

For me, it would be karaoke.

Like, if someone told me I had to go to karaoke, I'd be like, oh, my gosh, this is not gonna be good, you know?

And as long as I continue to never do it, I am telling myself that, like, I can't do karaoke and enjoy it because I'm a terrible singer.

Right, Right.

But if I go and I'm like, oh, I'm actually a great singer, it's gonna be wonderful.

Everyone's gon impressed.

Where, like, they're not.

If I go do karaoke, trust me, anyone who knows me is going, yeah, no, Liz, that's definitely not the truth.

Right.

But it's about that middle ground.

So I think, and I want to just kind of bring this back to outside of imposter syndrome, but it's also to growing in life, you know?

So yesterday, I'll give an example, but Ryan, our clinical director, and I met for a little bit, and he gave me some feedback around ways I can give feedback better to others.

And it's hard to hear at first and feedback around, like, oh, here's some things that we should try to do different, or that, like, might make people more receptive or that, you know, maybe didn't go as well as we wanted, or feedback for me, and it's hard to hear feedback.

Right?

But I think that 10 years ago, when I first heard feedback, I got so anxious about it.

I was so anxious about, oh my gosh, I let someone down, or someone's disappointed in me that I actually couldn't even hear the feedback and grow from it.

Because instead I would, like, seek reassurance and say, I would have probably gone home to Matt and said, oh, my gosh, they said this.

Do you think it's okay?

Because I.

I want to just be told it's okay and I don't need to worry where.

Instead, what I did yesterday is I was like, that's really good feedback, and I need to really be thoughtful about that.

Cause I don't want people to hear things that way or to have that experience.

Right.

And so I went home and I thought about it, and again, not in this, like, beating myself up and in this, like, oh, negative self pity, or also not in this, oh, I didn't do anything wrong, but in this way of, like, okay, how do I make sure somebody else doesn't have that same experience?

And how can I grow?

And I think what's important for listeners to remember is that that is the hardest part.

Right.

It is so much harder to be in a place where you're, like, willing to grow and willing to say, ugh, I don't like that I did that.

Like, I don't like that I made someone feel that way, or I don't like that they had this perception of the clinic because of that statement I made to them.

And how can I grow from that?

I love that you did something that's so hard to do when receiving feedback too.

Because I think my default, if I were to have gotten feedback just like five years ago, really would be to, oh my gosh, immediately jump in and try to fix it with this sense of urgency.

And when you do that, you're.

You haven't thought through it clearly, Right.

And so you're throwing all of these things at a wall, hoping that one of them sticks, and then that other individual that you're trying to make this better with probably feels completely overwhelmed.

Well, and that's the question I would say is, like, in those moments, if you do that, are you actually doing it because of the feedback, or are you doing it because you want yourself to feel better?

Right, Right.

Because when someone gives me feedback, like, it shouldn't be that I'm doing something to make me feel better.

It should be if I'm truly trying to take the feedback and grow, that's a Different experience.

Right.

But it's harder.

It's so hard.

And that's something I've really worked on the past couple years, I think, is if I feel that sense of urgency to go fix it immediately, to wait and try to recognize what I need to think about what I would change.

And I think my other go to was, let me apologize.

Because if I apologize, it's off my plate.

Right.

But, like, that's not helpful either.

Yeah.

And I think about that all the time with emails or different things.

I always tell people, I'm like, draft it, don't send it, think about it later.

Just because again, sometimes the way.

And this is part of growing up and growth, and I've talked about this, but when I've had experiences in the past with jobs or certain things in that moment, my viewpoint of it is really strong and really adverse or whatever's going on.

And then two, three years later, you're like, oh, my gosh, I see this so differently because I have new experiences and new understanding of situations.

And so I think that whether it's anxiety, whether it's imposter syndrome, it doesn't matter.

But the area for growth is not in fixing anxiety, and it's not in, okay, when I get feedback or when I feel a certain way, how do I make myself feel better?

And I want y'all to really slow down and think about that, because so many people, I see that struggle with anxiety, even if it's general anxiety, not ocd, it is because they don't want to tolerate anxiety, and so they want to get rid of it all the time.

Where really we're asking you to, like, lean into it, and that's how you grow.

And it.

Yeah, it sucks.

Yeah.

Like, I don't want to pretend like, that's fine.

It's not supposed to feel comfortable.

It's not supposed to feel comfortable.

Right.

It's uncomfortable.

It is uncomfortable.

And that's how we move through it.

Yeah, for sure.

All right, next question.

Callie, I'm going to throw to you.

What are some exposures for anxiety of worrying something bad is going to happen?

Ooh.

Yeah, That's a good question.

Okay.

When you fear something bad is going to happen, I always use the analogy of it's like you're playing defense.

Right.

So you go into these scenarios where, oh, gosh, I really hope I don't get triggered.

Or, you know, if you have fears of seeing.

Going to a movie and seeing some content that you know will ruin the experience for you.

Well, if you go in saying I really hope I don't get triggered.

It's like you're already looking for it totally.

You're way more likely to get triggered.

And so going into that experience with, yeah, I know I might get triggered, and let me remind myself, I have the tools to work through it in that moment.

And that's what playing offense would look like.

So go in leaning into that experience knowing, yeah, some triggers are going to come up along the way and I can handle them.

The other piece I would say to that is, I wouldn't always go to this, well, let me think of the worst case scenario that could happen.

I love that you said that.

I was about to ask you.

Yeah, because if you think about the worst case scenario that that could happen, you're trying to prepare for every type of risk that's possible.

And what I really try to remind patients even is if you want to spend every hour of every waking day preparing for all those risks, by means, do it.

But you're never going to get through the whole list.

And so what do you, what would you rather do?

Work on?

Or are you going to even like, do anything?

Right, right.

Because you're stuck doing that.

So scared.

Yeah.

So would you rather work on that list forever or would you rather live your life right and know that when certain triggers come up, you'll work through them at that time because you can never be prepared enough and live a fulfilling life.

And I want listeners to think about this in the sense too, that actually you guys experience this every day.

But a good example is driving a car.

When we drive a car, there are a million things that could go wrong.

Anything from a service thing, a tire thing, a car accident, kind of, you name it.

Lots of stuff can go wrong.

But most of us don't sit there and think about that and think about every worst case scenario before we got in a car or we probably wouldn't drive, it would be terrifying and none of us would want to take that risk and do it.

But instead we get in the car because we have somewhere we're gonna go, right?

We have something we need to do or work we have to be at or whatever it might be.

And so I think it's really important to acknowledge, though, it also wouldn't be helpful if when I'm walking to the car, I'm going, it's gonna go great.

I'm not gonna get in an accident.

Everything's gonna be perfect.

Because then, guess what?

The entire time I'm driving, that's also all I'm gonna think about.

And so it is so critical for us when anxiety is playing a role in an activity or any that we need to do or want to be doing, it's critical, actually that you slow down and you allow space for the anxiety.

So it's okay to be like, wow, I'm feeling really anxious about driving my car today, and I really want to figure out all the different things that could go wrong and understand it and be able to feel good about it.

But I'm going to actually choose not to do that and just get in the car and drive to the store anyway.

So you slow down, you acknowledge the anxiety, you talk to it as though you're not afraid of it in this kind of different neutral tone that feels weird and fake, and you go do that activity anyway.

Yeah.

Embrace it.

Live your life.

All right.

How do you manage the need to be hyper productive to do all things?

Yeah.

I mean, this is so hard.

And it's hard because I think that I want to kind of also caveat that different people have different personalities.

Right.

And so for some of us, like, I enjoy being productive.

Like, I grew up in a family that's hyper productive.

They're busy all the time, they work all the time.

And so I get a lot of feedback from people of like, Liz, you should slow down or you shouldn't do this as much, or, why do you take on this?

Or, why'd you agree to do the school gala and this thing and that thing?

And I actually enjoy it.

So I think that for me, I enjoy being busy.

At the same time, there are a lot of times in my life where I'm like, I signed up for too much.

Right.

You talked about this recently with the marathon, but where it's like, oh, why'd I sign up for that?

This feels like a lot.

And so I think that it is a balance for each individual.

And I want to just say that, that sometimes some people are built to want to do a lot more than someone else, and that's okay.

We're all kind of managing and doing what we can do effectively and what makes sense for us.

I think, though, if you know that you constantly feel like you are not able to be present, that you are not able to slow down, not able to do things you want to do because you're always behind or you've got to, that's when it's important for you to say no.

And saying no is a big exposure for a lot of people.

Right.

It's hard.

It's anxiety provoking.

I know I'm feeling That in this season of my life is that I've committed that I'm saying no to any commitments in the spring.

And it's hard when you get a text from a friend saying, do you want to go to this luncheon with me?

Or someone saying, can you attend this mental health thing?

And my go to is to say, yeah, sure, I can do that one thing.

But I actually, for me, I have to have hard lines and boundaries.

I have found it much easier if I say I'm saying no to everything, then, oh, I'll pick and choose.

Because then it's like, well, how do you really pick and choose?

Once you say yes to one person, you feel like it keeps going.

So again, there is no hard and fast on this.

This is really like what works for you and how do you figure out.

But only you are going to know when your need to be productive is actually detrimental versus it's actually helpful for you.

And there is a season for things.

I know I've talked to you about this, but you and I have talked about advocacy and talks.

And I kind of told you I cannot remember when this was, but it had to be five years ago or so.

But I remember saying to you, listen, there's a point in your career where you say yes to a lot more.

Right.

Because you're building up what you're doing and who you are and like your work that you do.

And then there's a point where you say no because you need to for other things.

And those are seasons in life.

Yeah.

I think even in certain seasons, there's times where I need to practice being able to watch a TV show.

Right.

Totally.

When life has been really stressful and busy, I think all I want to do is avoid slowing down and sitting and allowing for thoughts to be there.

And in those moments, more than anything, I should be practicing some of those things 100%.

How do I handle the terror I feel about current events?

Yeah, I think this is so good.

And this is something we've talked a lot about actually on previous episodes.

We went a lot into this when we were talking back in November about political anxiety, about just how do you manage content and things.

And I saw this significantly with our patients during COVID You know, when Covid was happening and it was on the news and it was on social media, and everywhere you looked, every you were reminded of COVID You were triggered by Covid.

You were thinking about COVID and it became overwhelming.

And so my biggest feedback was, you have to set limits for yourself.

So you have to Say to yourself, what is a healthy limit of information seeking or discussions that I want to participate in versus what is unhealthy?

So for many people, that's often social media limits, news limits, and even conversations with friends being able to say, hey, I love you, but I really don't want to talk about this together.

Can we talk about something else?

Or can we take that off the topics for today?

And it is okay to set those boundaries.

And so being able to be proactive about boundaries you need to set so that you aren't feeling this constant anxiety and terror state is critical in being thoughtful for yourself.

On, am I information seeking of something that's useful and I want to know this and I want to understand this, or am I actually, like, is doing this going to keep me more stuck?

Right.

Is it going to keep me in this rut?

Yeah.

I thought of an example.

I was with a couple of friends of mine the other day that have different political beliefs than I do, and not sure that they know that, but we were just having a conversation and I was kind of just letting them talk about politics, and they had some pretty strong opinions about things, and I did, too.

But I recognized I wasn't really in a place where I wanted to be talking about it.

I wasn't in a place where I wanted to defend a certain side.

I just kind of wanted to listen.

And I went home and I made a comment to a family member and said, yeah, they were talking about politics.

And their response was, well, why didn't you say anything?

Like, why didn't you stick up for.

And I said, because I was at capacity.

I knew that my bucket was full and it wasn't worth it for me.

So I think it's kind of helpful to know where you're at too, in life and pick your battles.

And this happens with everything.

Right.

I think about it, even with Matt, sometimes he'll say things that I'm just like, meh, don't care to fight that.

And sometimes I have a lot of energy to fight it.

Right.

And that's okay.

But life is kind of about what are the things that you want to kind of lean into or not.

But what I would say is that if you're saying you feel terror, then we know anxiety and other things have kind of overtaken.

And so you have to say, okay, what are the boundaries and limits I need to set for myself to not be at a place of terror?

Because that isn't helpful no matter what, for sure.

Next question is, and this is a great one for You, Callie, especially when we think about performance and athletes, but in general.

But can you address how OCD doesn't actually have a positive, positive impact on performance?

Yeah.

This has been big in the media lately with sports going on and zoom ups of certain athletes engaging in like a compulsive behavior, you know, like when the camera goes in on you.

There's probably a better term for that.

I'm like a zoom up.

Is that like a layup or what is this?

No, just like a big.

A football player who was engaging in a compulsion and media portrayed that this compulsion was helping the athlete and really painted OCD in this light of, well, yeah, these compulsions can help athletes or help individuals become great athletes and performers.

And that's not the case at all.

And I think it's so important that we send that message because when there's athletes out there that are struggling with something similar, it's promoting this idea of, well, you shouldn't get help for that if you want to be a great athlete.

Right.

And that's so terrible.

We want athletes to recognize that.

Yeah.

And if you continue engaging in these compulsions and you leave them untreated, they're likely to get worse.

Likely to take away your love for the sport altogether.

And so treatment does work.

It is effective and you can be an incredible athlete with the appropriate treatment.

And I use this example of I was a pretty good runner when I was in college and performing and I had really bad ocd.

And there was a time where I thought that OCD was helping me.

And I look back now, living a life as a runner without ocd.

And there's a part of my brain that's like, man, how could good could I have been if I wasn't spending like 70% of my energy engaging in compulsions before races?

Because I was exhausted going into every race.

And so I think it's important to just kind of consider that like these compulsions are taking away the mental energy this athlete could be putting into their sport and just really emphasize the message that it doesn't help.

Yeah.

And so I think this goes back to our really like, education standpoint of ocd and the statement my sister came up with a long time ago that now lots of folks use and we love it, is that OCD is not an adjective.

You know, and so if OCD is being used as an adjective, if you're hearing people say things like, oh, you should see my co worker's desk, she's so ocd, or you should see my mother in law's kitchen.

She's so ocd.

Or you should see my closet.

I'm so ocd.

Or I'm so OCD about that.

That that's probably not ocd because in fact what those individuals are talking about is that someone has preferences, right?

Somebody likes to keep things organized or clean, but also they often find those preferences to be functional.

Like, even if it's annoying when they're cleaning out their closet, they enjoy the end product.

Even if it's annoying when they clean out their closet, they enjoy the end product or they find it that like, oh, this was functional.

This made me feel good.

That is not ocd.

Ocd, Obsessive compulsive disorder is disruptive, it's dysfunctional, it impacts people's life and it's not done for good.

So it doesn't make you better at your job, it doesn't make you a better athlete, it doesn't make you better at school.

It's actually just disrupting your life.

And so that's really important to think about.

There's a big difference in saying, oh, I'm going to reread this email once because it's going to the CEO and it's a big deal versus I'm spending eight hours rereading it and then the next two days ruminating on it and rechecking the sent email.

And this is actually super unhelpful behavior.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

The messages in the media are getting better, but we can clearly see there's still work to be done.

Always, always and work to be done in our field.

By the way, like, I just want to say, almost every day I hear clinicians misuse OCD themselves where it's like, okay, they'll say things like, oh, that's my own ocd, will do that, or I can.

And it's like, ah, don't say that.

You know, cringe, cringe, cringe.

So next question is, my sister says I cough and clear my throat too much and I feel like it's tied to my anxiety.

And I always thought though, that it was just allergies or who I was.

How would I know if it is a tic disorder?

Yeah.

So tic disorder.

And I mean, oftentimes someone can be clearing their throat because of allergies.

Right.

But if it's something that you've experienced for a long time, I want to point out you could have allergies and a tic disorder.

Right.

So some of the signs of a tic disorder, tics are sudden.

They're repetitive non rhythmic movements or Sounds.

Vocal tics can include throat clearing, coughing or grunting.

And these are often involuntary and may temporarily reduce with conscious effort, but often end up returning.

The onset usually happens.

Tics develop during early childhood and become less pronounced in adulthood.

But that does not mean that you can't experience a tic disorder as an adult.

And then triggers are stress, anxiety, or excitement.

And so I think one of the things that one can do to determine is absolutely seek support.

Right.

If you're not sure if this is allergies or a tic disorder, there's professionals out there that can help you.

And so seek support from an anx anxiety specific clinician.

Someone that's evidence based and doing work like cognitive behavioral therapy.

Yeah.

And there is treatment for tic disorders.

I want to be really clear about that.

I think a lot of individuals think that tics are completely involuntary and that people can't learn to control them.

And oftentimes they do feel involuntary.

Right.

So that is kind of part of like, oh, I just do that or I may not notice it.

I don't think I have control.

But with appropriate cbt, you actually can learn how to either control or shift or change the behavior.

So they are treatable.

And that is really important to make sure we're talking about.

Yeah.

And so just a little sneak peek of maybe some habit reversal that would be done when someone is in treatment for a tic disorder.

The therapist might have them keep a journal when the behaviors are occurring and note if it's linked to certain situations or environments or even emotional states.

And so the individual will become more aware of the surroundings that are involved in when this tic is happening.

They have to record the frequency or duration and whether they feel an urge or relief after performing that action.

And so there's a lot of steps that go into reducing the behaviors of a tick.

But anyways, a clinician can help kind of sort between, Nope, this really is just your allergies, or there's something that.

You can do to work on this 100%.

And I would encourage y'all to check out the episode on BFRBS that we did with Dr.

Mutan Odam because it's very similar.

The treatment is very similar.

So we talk a lot about, you know, habit reversal and I think comb treatment and different things that, you know, may be also used for tic disorders.

Absolutely.

What are things I could be doing to make my kids anxious or anxiety prone?

Oh, this is such a good question.

And I'm gonna start with ocd.

Cause one of the questions I Get all the time is, is OCD contagious?

And the answer is no, it's not contagious.

You can't give somebody your disorder.

However, learned behaviors can be learned behaviors, right?

So if you see me constantly turning the sink off with a barrier, or opening doors with my feet, or not touching certain things, my kids are gonna pick and they're going to engage in similar behaviors.

The difference though with OCD is that they're not going to be doing it because there's a specific fear and an intrusive thought.

If they don't have ocd, they're just doing it because it's a learned behavior.

They saw mom doing it and they're following my my behaviors versus with ocd, there's this fear.

Anxiety, however, is a little bit different.

And I want to be really clear about this.

I remember being in a family session once with some clinicians and family members and a clinician explaining anxiety is something that is often met, right?

So when one family member's anxiety rises, the other one rises the next one.

And all of a sudden we're at this kind of blow up state.

And I remember the mom in that family session saying, well, I don't have any anxiety.

And the rest of us being like, huh, interesting.

Are you sure about that?

Why would I get in a million?

You know, because we can see it, but they can't.

So oftentimes as parents, we don't even realize our anxious behavior, right?

We don't even acknowledge it or realize that it is there, it's present and that our kids pick up on it.

And so I think when we are asking a question of like, how do I make sure my kids aren't super anxious or aren't prone to anxiety, that actually starts just with you as parents.

So have you done your own work?

Have you worked on your own anxiety?

And are you managing that well, especially around your kids?

Right?

So when you feel overwhelmed, do your kids see that and notice?

And again, that doesn't mean we never feel overwhelmed.

Like, of course we're gonna feel overwhelmed, but think about the difference.

So I wanna paint two scenarios.

But a mom who's overwhelmed, she's got lunches to pack, laundry to do, all these things.

You come home, there's all these tasks.

And one scenario might be a mom who's just like snappy and short and super anxious and upset, and the husband comes home and says hi.

And she's like, I don't know why you're in a good mood, there's so much to do and we're behind.

Right.

And the anxiety is overwhelming versus a mom who also has the same task to do and maybe says something to her kids like, sorry if I feel a little bit short tonight.

I just feel like we have an endless to do list, and I don't know how I'm gonna get it all done.

Like, anyone wanna help me out?

And let's kind of knock some of this out together and this different perspective of how we.

Right.

We didn't.

Again, we talked about this earlier in the episode.

We didn't pretend like there's nothing to do because there is stuff to do, and it is overwhelming.

But one of the things I loved.

Denise eganstack is a great child clinician, and we'll have her on for sure soon.

Is when she was talking one time she did a webinar and she talked about how important it is to verbalize to your kids when there's things that are making you feel a certain way.

So even verbalizing to your kids, hey, mom, had a bad day at work today, and I'm kind of stressed about it.

And so if I seem a little bit quiet or a little bit unengaged, it's not.

Cause I don't wanna be here with you.

I do, and I'm gonna try my best, but really, I've got something else going on.

And I remember when she said that, thinking, oh, my gosh, why do we never do that as parents?

Like, we often are taught to just pretend that things are fine and be present and to ignore that when, like, nobody can do that.

And it comes out unexpectedly, totally.

And it's a way.

And then you are making your kids anxious, you know?

And so I actually think it is so critical, like she talked about this in this episode once, that to label how you're feeling, to label what's going on, but to talk your kids through it so that it isn't this scary thing.

And so the reality is, is that we're all prone to anxiety.

We live in a society.

We think about our podcast name, right?

The Society, the Anxiety Society.

Because our society is full of anxiety.

It's everywhere.

The question, though, is, are you still responding to anxiety as though it's dangerous?

Are you still responding to your anxiety as if it's urgent?

Are you still struggling with your anxiety?

And what I will tell you guys, sorry to have to say this, if you are struggling with anxiety, your kids will be more prone to it and they will have more struggles with it than if you have done your work and you can appropriately manage your anxiety.

Because kids can see that, they can sense that, they can understand that.

Yeah.

And I just want you guys to think about how beneficial would it be if you could point out when you're having an extreme response.

Because I look back in, you know, I remember one time someone was watching me and I was really little, and a little boy fell off his bicycle and cut his knee.

And I think I was like 4 or 5 years old and my response was to go get some rocks and some, like, acorns and things.

And this doesn't sound like it makes a lot of sense, but I went and put him on his knee and.

And at that time I thought I was helping him out.

And the individual watching me had some anxiety about blood and said, you can't touch his blood.

He has a bunch of diseases or he could have a bunch of diseases.

Like all of these different things.

You can't touch someone's blood.

And as a five year old hearing that, how do you think I responded?

I know I was so freaked out, I thought I was gonna die.

All of these things.

And for a long time I was terrified to be around blood because of that intense response.

It wasn't that that was contagious, it wasn't that that they forced anxiety or gave it to me, but because they had an intense response that they didn't recognize they had.

I also had an intense response.

And they still could have.

And I wanna be clear, like, right.

They still could have appropriately educated you on like, oh, hey, Callie, like, it's so sweet you're trying to help out, but, like, really, you should wear gloves if you're touching blood or like, let's put a band aid on it.

Or tell the nurse, like, you don't wanna do that.

Right.

To where you could have still learned.

But in a way that was not like, terror versus, like, let me create terror in a kid that doesn't, you know.

Yeah.

And so I love that question that you could just engage in as an individual.

Oh, was that a little bit of an extreme response?

There might be some validity to it.

Your kids might need to clean their room or we might need to get chores done or.

Yeah, we might want to use sanitization if we're going to be helping someone that's got a bloody knee.

But if you're responding with this extreme response, it's usually going to have a bad effect.

100%.

And I will say, as a parent of young kids, they pick up on everything.

Your kids sense your anxiety, they sense how you feel.

Since, I mean, even just like Being pregnant, it is so amazing how my kids, like, every day it's like, are you okay, Mom?

How are the babies?

How's this baby?

They sense it, they feel it, you know, and so to remember that at times, I think so many of us kind of justify, oh, well, we all lose it at times.

And again, that's okay.

It is okay to recognize that I'm not perfect.

Like, mom gets upset sometimes and this happens.

But what isn't okay is if we constantly justify it versus working to make a change.

And that goes back to what we were talking about earlier in the episode is when you're getting feedback or you're seeing it in your own kids, can you work to make a positive change and to acknowledge that, wow, that actually wasn't helpful.

And I want to do something different versus justifying it too.

Can you?

I love that you said that.

And I think we should have that in a quote on a social media post or something like, not justifying it.

What does that even mean?

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, like I said, I think for years, the way I dealt with anxious moments was I tried to justify that it was okay.

So instead of saying like, like, oh, yeah, I could have said that conversation better or that did kind of maybe make someone feel uncomfortable and I should learn and grow from that, I didn't want to say that because then it meant I had to acknowledge I was doing something wrong.

And then I would have to feel my anxiety.

And so instead I would justify.

I would say things like, well, that was not my fault, or everybody does that, or that's still right, versus being able to say, yes.

And again, that's the harder part.

But we can't grow if we just look at everything as, oh, well, it's fine, or it doesn't matter, kids don't.

Know, or that's just how I am.

That's how I am.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, last question is how do I increase willingness to tolerate discomfort and.

Or willingness to start treatment?

Well, I think one is focus on your values.

Right.

Why are you planning to do this?

Hard work.

And I think for me, it took a lot of hard questioning of what is anxiety taken away from me?

What was I able to do at one point in my life that I can't do now because of my anxiety?

Or what do I want to.

To get back to doing, even if I can't even imagine doing that tomorrow, but hopefully one day can.

And so that builds motivation in itself to lean in, to do the hard work.

If, you know, okay, I have these Things that I value, that I care about, and I want to be able to do that again.

And so I am going to feel uncomfortable now so that I feel comfortable later.

Right.

Like, I'm going to be willing to pay that cost so that I can get my life back.

And then there's often distress tolerance skills that one can engage in called dialectical behavior therapy.

So if someone really can't regulate their emotions, well, they might be doing some DBT skills where they engage in progressive muscle relaxation, relaxation, hold ice cubes, or try to regulate some of their emotions so that they can do the hard.

Work if they're super intense.

Yeah, that's important.

What I will say too, is that I think one of the fallacies of anxiety treatment is that people think when I do treatment or when I'm willing to seek treatment, I have to be.

Be totally willing to feel discomfort.

And what John Grayson always talks about, Dr.

Grayson, who I love and I'm very close with, is the goal of treatment.

And what I need you to be on board with when you start treatment is that you're willing to learn how to experience discomfort.

If you could already experience discomfort, you wouldn't need to come to treatment.

Right.

So, like, we don't expect you to show up to treatment willing to experience all the discomfort, but are you willing to learn how to do that?

And can we slowly teach you how to do that and help you kind of break cycles and have new experiences and get new understanding and language around your own anxiety, your own distress, your own triggers?

All of the above.

And so I think that's just so important is that again, whether we're talking about depression or anxiety, it doesn't matter.

If we wait to feel like we can do something, we're often never going to do it.

But it's.

Are you willing to learn how to do that?

So are you willing to learn how to feel distress?

Are you willing to learn how to still get up in the morning and go do that activity even if you don't feel up for it?

Right.

We're going to teach you how to do that.

That's the point of therapy, is that you don't show up already ready to do it, or you wouldn't need therapy.

Yeah.

And people will often say, but I'm scared, or that's gonna be really hard.

And my answer to that is, well, yeah, but you've already been doing something really hard, Right.

You've already been living this life without the appropriate coping skills and battling anxiety by feeding it more of what it wants.

And so if you can do that, you can definitely do the hard work of leaning into therapy to get your life back.

And I always tell people, if you're not scared, that'd be weird.

Yeah, right.

Like, it'd be.

It'd be strange.

If you're coming to therapy and you're not scared or you're not skeptical, like, I want you to feel that.

That's good.

That's normal.

And can we move through it?

Yeah, definitely.

So I Love Q&As.

Y'all know they're my favorite episodes.

So excited for our next one and whenever.

We will do that in a few weeks.

But remember, the Q and A's are only fun if y'all submit questions.

So please make sure you're submitting questions.

You can do that through our website, through social media, through any avenue you want.

But we love to hear directly from you guys.

Yeah, we do.

So thanks for being with us.

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