Navigating Anxiety: Insights from Sports Psychology

Welcome to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We're your hosts, Dr. Elizabeth Mackinbell and.

Cali Werner, both therapists and individuals that have navigated our own anxiety journeys.

Have you ever wondered how we became a society that is so defined by anxiety?

Tune in as we discuss, learn and dive into what anxiety is, how we perpetuate it and how we can stop it.

This podcast will be real, raw and unfiltered, just like the anxiety that plagues so many of us.

We are here to push boundaries, challenge the status quo and deep dive into topics that are sure to make you uncomfortable.

If you're ready to step outside of your comfort zone and explore the unfiltered truth that will help you change your entire relationship with anxiety you and get back to living your life.

You're in the right place.

This is the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We live it, we contribute to it, and together we can change it.

And there's one thing that I need from you.

Can you come through?

Welcome back to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

I'm really excited about personally diving into more content around sport, performance and athletes.

So we have an Amazing guest, Dr. Haley.

Thanks Kelly.

Happy to be here.

And I just want to give you and Dr. Elizabeth props too.

You talk about anxiety and OCD and some pretty serious conversations, but you really do so in a light, warm hearted, always smiling so.

And I just love listening to you, to the two of you.

So I'm happy to be included.

Well, that means a lot.

And that's one of the goals, is to incorporate evidence based practices while also making it relatable because yeah, most of us in the world, all of us really experience anxiety and a lot of us don't really handle it initially the way that we should be.

So I'm going to go ahead and introduce Dr. Haley Perlis, the performance psychology expert, speaker and author who helps leaders, entrepreneurs and high achievers apply the mental strategies of elite athletes to perform at their best.

With a PhD in sports psychology and certifications in coaching, fitness and nutrition, she delivers science backed tools to build mental resilience, sharpen focus and turn pressures into productivity.

Dr. Perlis has worked with Fortune 500 companies, top executives and global brands like Marriott and Starbucks.

Her book Personal Podium offers practical strategies for peak performance and her insight has been featured on Oprah, espn, Thrive Magazine and Beachbody.

Whether on stage or in the boardroom, she equips individuals to lead with confidence, clarity and composure.

What an honor to have you on today.

I'm super excited.

I'm with a fellow runner, athlete, clinician as well so it's super, super exc.

Exciting to be able to talk about these topics with you.

Yes, absolutely.

And one of the things I really want to geek out on with you today is just Olympic pressures.

My dissertation for my PhD that some of our listeners have heard already is an interview that I've done with 20 different Olympians on the pressure that they experience and specifically the post Olympic blues.

And so I just want to make sure that we cover content on how Olympians can stay calm under pressure.

And I know you have lots of tips and tricks for that that our listeners would love.

But before we dive into all of that, we have to start with our traditional anxious moment.

So you said you already had one.

We kind of prefaced this before.

And so I'm going to let you take the mic and go first.

Yes.

So I will tell you that I had one prepared as I was excited to be here.

And then something just happened before this call, too, so I can share both.

They're two totally different.

Just a week ago, I went to the Red Sea to learn a brand new sport, wing foiling, if you've ever heard.

What.

No, I haven't.

So there was kite servers and then there was wing foilers.

And wing foilers, it's a foil board, which is basically a picture, a wakeboard, a surfboard that's small and it's.

There's a foil like a, A kind of like a.

Just picture like a long fin at the bottom of it.

So the board, when you're doing it right, the board levitates like it, it gets above the water to 2ish feet and then you have the foil and then you have this wing think of like a windsurfer, but the wing is not attached to the board.

And so.

Okay, I've seen that.

Okay.

So I learned to do.

I went for a full week with people who've been doing this, and I'm brand spanking new and I'm the sports psychologist.

I go to this event and I'm.

I do a lot of sports, but I have, I do the sports that I'm good at.

Right.

Yeah.

And for the first time, you know, I'm a ski racer.

So it was.

If everybody's on the blues and the blacks and the double diamonds and I'm stuck on the bunny hill for a week.

Yeah.

And I had to deal with the.

You know, first of all, I have to keep my mindset in check because this is my area of expertise.

If I can't control my own, if I can't deal with my own head, you know, what am I doing?

Helping other people deal with theirs.

And it was a very humbling experience.

You know, am I going to learn this?

And I'm in front of people.

And so that was a very anxious moment for me.

And I feel like I was a good.

I was my own.

I was my best client during that week.

That's a good way to put it.

That's a good way to put it.

So would you say at any point you started to enjoy the sport?

I really enjoyed it the whole time.

But I will tell you, there was one afternoon session where it was really windy, really gusty, and I didn't want to go.

I'm just going to be real honest, I didn't want to do it.

And I was very anxious about maybe hurting myself or falling down, not getting it right.

And I just used one of the techniques we're going to talk about, which is staying calm under pressure.

I really used some of those.

Some of those tools.

I can't wait to hear that.

I mean, I. I think what I am so impressed by that I actually need more skills around is you stuck with something that you weren't good at.

I have a very hard time enjoying things that I'm not naturally good at.

And so props to you.

That would.

We would call that in the work that I do, exposure therapy.

So well done.

Yeah.

I don't know that it was desensitization.

I don't know that I was like, you know, we'll try this, we'll try that.

They kind of threw me into the deep end.

Yeah.

Ye.

Exposure therapy for sure.

And then if I.

We have time right before this call.

So my entire business up until this point is referral, which is fabulous.

I am.

I love that I get to say that.

And I am now starting into this world of marketing and, you know, social media and things.

I'm a year and so into that.

And so I had a call with my coach who wants me to do like a.

A masterclass and offer it on a monthly basis for free.

And my first anxious thought was, will anybody show up?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I relate to that so much.

And it's actually tied to my anxious moment today because I actually made a social media video about it on my Instagram, my personal Instagram.

But I just was talking about how I'm feeling often or feeling like I'm doing something wrong when I don't have enough on my plate.

But most of the time I live in this, like, overwhelmed, doing too much state, and that when something finally slows down and I get a breather.

I can't enjoy it.

And so I feel like, oh, I've got to figure out more marketing that I can do or other ways to, you know, contribute.

And it's hard because you never really get to relax and recover when you live that way.

And so I just, it, it makes me feel for you that you're feeling some of that imposter syndrome in this area.

Because I feel it often.

I think, I think if anyone says they don't feel it, I think they're lying.

Yeah.

Lying to themselves or lying to other people.

And that's one of the greatest lessons that we can teach other people is that all of these doubts.

Imposter syndrome, if you want to call it that, it's normal or human.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And.

And yeah.

So that was my anxious moment, was learning to be okay, living in the middle.

I shared a vulnerability moment on Instagram and I even did some preluding by texting my husband, don't watch Instagram.

You'll think that my video is really cringey.

And I probably shouldn't have said that.

I should have just written it out even further.

But you know, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback this time around that, oh, yeah, this is so relatable.

And so, yeah, I've just been feeling anxious about being in that middle place.

As of late, the summer season has come up and so my caseload slowed down a little bit.

But I'm trying to figure out where to use my time most valuably.

And that brings on a whole different kind of anxiety.

But there's also something that you mentioned just with the this, there's almost like stress and anxiety in the calm and the quiet and the stillness.

And recovery is one of the greatest ways that we can cope with our anxiety, work through with our anxiety, reduce our anxiety.

Yet the very exercises that recovery, the very exercises that qualify as recovery, sometimes, especially at the beginning, actually feel a whole lot more like stress because it's different.

It's change.

Like meditation.

A lot of people find meditation extremely stressful, even though the whole point of it is for stress recovery.

Yeah, yeah.

I always like to share the 15 minute rule.

Like when you.

I don't know where I ended up hearing that.

Maybe Mel Robert Robbins or something.

But you start an activity or something that you think you'll enj like meditation or even just reading a book, you don't really enjoy the first 15 minutes of it.

You have to, if you're reading a book, get the characters, get the scene, the environment, and then you start to enjoy it later, and then you remember why you do this.

And I recently lowered my mileage for running.

I.

This is the first time I've gone like a whole year without a race and have gotten really into beach volleyball again.

I love it.

It's so much fun to me.

And I go on Thursday nights, but every time I have a stressful workday, my mind goes, why did you sign up for beach volleyball?

Like you'd rather relax and do anything else.

And then I get there and I'm like, oh, this is why, once I get into it.

And so I find that to be a helpful reminder as well.

But let's get more into your tips and tricks.

So from the very beginning, how did you get into sports psychology and performance work?

I was an athlete growing up a ski racer, as I previously mentioned, and I had a moment which was the greatest.

Aha.

Moment of my life.

At 12 years old, I was asked to go and compete in the world championships for my age group.

And right before I was about to, literally 45 seconds before I'm about to get into the starting gate, my coach pulls out a hundred dollar bill, places it in front of my face, and tells me that he had bet on me to win this race.

Oh, my goodness.

And so what happened?

So in that he then also, I should say this, he then also said, I bet on a different athlete who was competing in a race the week before, a race that you're not in.

And I lost.

And I'm not a PR and I'm not prepared to lose today.

And then he pointed me in the direction of the starting gate, smiled and told me to go have fun.

Oh, my goodness.

So at 12, I didn't know it, but today I know it, that I was at an emotional and a mental.

Mental fork in the road.

Yeah.

Hand which may people who are listening and watching may be like, wait a second.

Oh, no.

How could a coach do that?

Right?

What if.

What if I was thinking, maybe I could have thought this.

What if I make a mistake?

What if I let him down?

But I didn't think that way, right?

Instead, I thought to myself, wait a second.

If my coach believes in me so much that he's betting on me, doesn't that mean I'm good at this?

And.

And that thought reminded me that I had won every race so far that season and that this is a technical course.

I thrive in technique.

And I slept well, and my family's here to support me.

And all that energy, which is nervous Energy, but it is energy in a good way, confident way, challenging way, passionate way, propelled me down that course.

I did win, which was great.

My coach came down, congratulated me, kept the money for himself.

But he said something to me.

He said, it's amazing what your performance will be like when you get your head straight.

And then two weeks later, he brought a sports psychologist to come and speak to my team, and it all just made sense.

And I went home at 12 and I told my parents that I wanted to be a sports site gal when I grew up.

And where people think that this coach may be awful for betting on them, and I don't recommend that our leaders bet on them.

However, this coach goes down as one of my favorite coaches.

He knew me, and he had actually.

I really strongly believe that he had been training me all along to embrace pressure.

And that is what I like to do.

I like to help people.

I say.

I say embrace pressure as a performance enhancer.

I love that.

And I love what you said about your coach.

Knew you.

I had my high school running coach who helped me get to a point of really accomplishing a lot and getting a full ride in college and doing all these things, similarly believed in me and would tell me what I was capable of doing, but also would always remind me.

He had the saying that I still say to this day when I'm nervous for things, it's a party out there.

Uh, and.

And so he would treat it like a party.

Like, afterwards, we're gonna go, you know, jump in if we were in Austin competing at State, Barton Springs, or we're gonna go get this burger.

We're gonna go do all these things.

And I remember when I first went to Rice and had one of my first races, my coach there didn't know me as well yet, and he pulled me aside before the race, and he started talking strategy, and he went over all of these different things.

You're gonna do this.

You have to remember the split.

And I stopped him and I said, but it's a party out there, right?

And he goes, kelly, no.

You have to take this seriously, like, you're in college now.

And it's so funny because he saw my face just drop, um, in every race after that, he started using the saying, it's a party out there.

Because that was what I needed as an athlete.

I already was type A getting myself to that starting line, being really hard on myself, that I needed that reminder to incorporate the fun.

Uh, and I just love that example of how your coach has to get to know You.

So they can meet you where you're at.

Absolutely.

I'm a really big believer, and I don't know if this is for everyone, but I'm a really big believer that when I'm going to teach someone something, I actually want them to teach me first because then I learn how they learn.

If they're teaching me a certain way, it means that that's how they typically like to learn.

So really get open communication, getting to know a person when feasible, when you.

When you can do it.

Right.

And I also love the idea that your coach wasn't telling you that.

It's.

Treat it like a.

Treat it like a practice run.

No, this is competition.

But.

But there's enjoyment.

There's enjoyment around competition.

Right, Right.

There's fun in pressure.

Yeah.

So, so true.

Yeah.

And so a big part of your research, just from my research of you, was, is on resilience and antifragility.

And so how do you incorporate that into your work with athletes?

Or even just.

I love that you said you have athletes teach you.

Do you have an example of a anonymous case where this comes to mind and how you incorporate it with them?

You know, great examples was these.

This was a family, three kids.

And I showed up.

I didn't know I was to be interviewed.

I actually thought I had already.

I already had the job.

But yeah, I showed up and these three boys had to teach me.

Oh, it's like a skateboard with a.

With a.

It's not.

Anyways, it was a.

A sport that I never do, and.

And they wanted me to do it.

And so I asked them to teach me.

And this particular individual, I realized he was using very specific words.

Cue words.

He wasn't talking a lot.

He wasn't really, like, explaining it to me in paragraphs.

He was giving me attentional cues.

Yeah.

So that would be an example.

Another.

Another athlete that I was just actually on with today.

We were talking about something and they, they.

They use symbolic imagery.

They're like, oh, it's like I'm on a slack line.

So I knew that they were.

Even though.

Even though this individual has never actually been on a slack line.

She was just using.

She was just using symbolic imagery.

So now I know that when I am sharing exercises, when I'm using teaching tools to use more symbolic imagery.

So that's what I mean when you're.

I love that conversations.

Listen to how people are communicating with you so that you can better communicate with them.

Wow.

That's such good advice for coaches, too.

Like, of course, clinicians and sports psychologists need to hear this.

But I think that's really important for the coaching community.

I would have actually thought of that.

And then also just for, for all of us as people.

Yeah, yeah, we, we, you know, we're trying to learn, we're trying to, to be educated.

We want to grow.

And, and we may not even know how best we learn.

So start paying attention to how you teach other.

Start paying attention to how you explain and, and then that's how you're going to want to learn.

So may you, you may seek out your teachers, your mentors, your coaches who teach this style.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

Well said.

And so how would you define resilience versus antifragility?

Resilience to me is not just the bounce back.

You know, a lot of people say you fall, you get back up, you bounce back.

To me, it's, to me, I'm going to add one more step.

It's bouncing back with intention, bringing back the purpose.

I'm not just going to get up, I'm going to get up with this intention, with this purpose.

And normally it's, I always, everyone that I work with, we always start with what are your three fundamental strengths?

What are the best.

What are your best skill sets?

What are your best strengths?

And it doesn't have to be technical, tactical.

I look people in the eye when I'm talking to them, or, you know, I'm a, I'm a joker, I tell jokes.

And so resilience is bouncing back up and then with intention, usually grabbing a hold to one of your strengths and exposing yourself to whatever's in front of you, leading with one of your strengths.

Yeah.

And I'm sure you've worked with athletes at times that have really gotten sucked into something they've regretted.

Right.

Or maybe a performance that didn't go so well.

And I was actually speaking to a client yesterday about a similar situation, something that they regretted, something that they've missed out on in life because of this decision.

And my favorite reminder is you wouldn't be who you are now without having gone through that.

And just, I think that speaks so well to your bouncing back with intention.

Is that how you said it?

Bouncing back with intention?

Yeah, yeah, I just, yeah, it is bouncing back, but just bouncing back with, with, with some type of action that you chose.

Right.

Because we all know that intrinsic motivation is, is intrinsic motivation I call heart motivation.

And that comes from autonomy, having choice.

So bounce back with intention.

Choose to do something when you get back up.

Relatedness, belonging, contribute, and then effectiveness.

So lead Lead with something like that.

The.

In addition, you just mentioned something about having a setback.

Resilience to me is also, or one of the, I don't even know that I would call it resilience, but I think it's, it helps with anxiety, it helps with, with, with many, many anxious feelings and actions.

I'm okay with striving for perfection.

You know, I want to be perfect.

I don't know anyone who doesn't want to be perfect.

I'm okay with striving for perfection.

I'm not okay with demanding it of yourself.

And there is a difference.

And so because it's not possible to be perfect.

So if you're gonna, if you're gonna go out there and strive for perfection in addition, equally, if not more, you need to be, you need to strive to be your best recoverer.

Yes.

You make a mistake, how am I going to quickly recover?

And the greatest lesson where we can learn this is in sports.

The athlete who stands on top of the podium at the end of the day is not the perfect athlete because there's really no such thing.

It's the athlete that best recovered.

It's the athlete that's not harping on the mistake they just made.

It's the athlete that's okay, what's next, right?

The athlete gets back up with intention.

So I think about resilience as also having this, this goal of being the best recoverer I can be.

Yeah, yeah, that's beautifully said.

I think that's so true.

And I mean a lot of the work that we do from a non sport perspective at the OCD Institute, we work with a lot of individuals that have perfectionism to a point where it's debilitated them and it's taken over their lives and they're striving for perfection.

I think is if we were to put it in sports psychology, they don't have a bounce back strategy because they are expecting nothing less than that.

And so the crash, when it doesn't happen, because it won't.

Right.

Because like you said, no athlete, no person is perfect takes away from the things that they value and care about.

So getting them to shift that perspective makes a lot of sense.

And I haven't worded it like that.

Before because if it's not perfect, then I'm not going to do it at all.

If it's not perfect, then it doesn't count.

If it's not perfect, then I'm just awful and it's not perfect.

I'm not good enough.

That doesn't help Us.

Right.

So it's really having this idea around when, not if, but when I fall down, how am I going to get back up?

Yeah.

And it doesn't mean you can't cry in the down.

I mean, go ahead and.

Right.

You, you know, I'll never forget one of the greatest lessons.

When I got divorced, my father said, cry so that you can then get back up.

So I'm not saying, you know, there is a moment to stay down and to cry and let those emotions out so that you can then get back up.

But when you get back up, how am I going to be the best recoverer?

What are my intentions?

How do I lead with my strengths?

Right, right.

You have to let some of those valid emotions play through, but you can't get stuck in them.

Yeah, yeah.

So my favorite piece of what we're going to talk about today is pressure.

When you work with these high achieving athletes, what is it that you incorporate to help them handle intense pressure?

Because I know a lot of them have it.

Yeah.

The first piece is welcome to the.

Club.

For sure Party, as you say.

Yeah, definitely.

You know, how did you earn the pressure?

That's a really great question to ask yourself and to answer because at that.

Point they're thinking of the success that got them to that point.

I hope so.

Yeah.

How did you earn the pressure?

Now there are going to be times when you haven't earned the pressure and you're putting it on yourself unnecessarily, adding to unnecessary anxiety.

So if you can't answer that question, how did I earn that pressure?

Or if we can't help help you, you know, identify how you've earned it?

Well, then we have to really identify, you know, is this, is this at this moment in time, you know, is this not an opportunity?

Like, are we just feeling unnecessary pressure?

So let's get down to really still learning and growing and finessing and having, you know, just those aspects of it.

But if you're, you know, I just, I once on one of your podcasts, you mentioned Simone Biles.

Now, that girl has earned pressure for sure.

She had to go, she had to go and learn how to, you know, how to, how to work with that and work through that.

But, you know, so one of the ways is you, you look to see how you've earned it and then you can lead back with, yeah, this is, this is actually like, I, I've, I've made it.

Welcome to the club.

So that's the first piece because then it's like a club that you've Yeah, I think it's, it's a, it's a good achievement.

Pressure becomes an achievement.

Right?

A success story.

Pressure becomes a success story.

And, and then we learn to, we learn to identify what's irrelevant and what's relevant.

And you are relevant and your performance is relevant.

And sticking to what got you there in the first place is relevant.

I mean, I know you're more of a long distance runner, but Sydney McLaughlin, the hurdler, you know, she has earned pressure.

She had, I think she's, she's beat her own world record a handful of times and numerous Olympic medals.

And I remember watching her being interviewed, like, how can you consistently do this?

And she was very clear.

I stick to what works.

I stick to the strategy that works.

And often anxiety makes us cut corners.

Often anxiety makes us rush things or skip things or change things or over evaluate things.

Exactly, exactly.

So there's, there's this.

Once you say how you've earned pressure, you have an ability to bring back the trust you have in yourself, in your program, and then you can more stay connected to that program that you trust.

Stick to the strategy that, that works.

Focus on those strengths.

You know, I was just laughing to myself because I love watching her compete and just the smile that she had, you know, just everything about her competition is so inspiring.

And I, it makes me laugh because I think about how sometimes people ask, why, Kelly, why would you do marathons when you could do an 800 meter race?

And okay, number one reason that I don't actually get to is I'm not a fast twitch girl.

Like I am very slow twitch fibers and move slowly.

But number two, in all honesty, I have loved having that extra.

I don't even know if you would call it assurance or reassurance that if I fall or if something happens, I can still run a great race.

Whereas it just seems like a cool way that I've learned to cope and tell myself that takes off some of the pressure.

And I think we all have those unique, you know, things that work for us.

And that would be one of mine.

Yeah, and, and good for you for acknowledging that and good for you for owning that.

And I would like to think, even though I've never met her, but I would like to think that if we asked Sydney McLaughlin why aren't you running a marathon, she'd probably feel a lot safer in her hurdles.

Yes, for sure.

For sure.

You know, that's, that's why there is variety out there.

None of us are pigeonholed.

None of us pigeonholed.

We don't have to do things a certain way, which I think also contributes to anxiety and imposter syndrome.

It's supposed to look this way.

It's not supposed to look like.

Anyway, we have to be Frank Sinatra, learn the fundamentals, and then, like, Frank Sinatra, do it your way.

Like, you know the song I did at my.

Right, Right, Yeah.

And I think we see, you know, more and more athletes breaking new records because they're starting to recognize that it doesn't fit one mold and that there are a lot of ways to get to a specific spot and point, and that comparison is something that pigeonholes you.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, okay, we've gotten through any more points that you wanted to add for navigating pressure?

I do think, you know, you mentioned this with your anxiety moment.

Just the, what am I going to do with my quiet time?

I do think that pressure is a real thing, and we.

We do need energy to embrace it.

We can't be.

We can't be emotionally and mentally exhausted and try to embrace pressure at the same time.

We do need energy.

We do need energy.

And the only way to renew energy.

The only way to renew energy is with recovery, and not just recovering your physical body, but mentally and emotional recovery, finding yourself in a place of calm and peace.

So, you know, meditation, deep breathing, I call it, you know, going outside and for a moment, just focusing on what you see, then what you taste, then what you hear and what you smell the five senses bring.

It's kind of like an active meditation, allows you to be still and centered.

We can not be our best self if we don't take moments of renewal, energy, or recovery pauses.

So every person that I.

That I interact with, that's really a big part of the program.

So that then you have the energy to go and embrace the pressure.

That's.

That you're.

That you're actually choosing because you are looking to grow and develop and have eyes on you.

Yeah.

There was a point in time where, on my own anxiety journey, I'm a big anxiety OCD advocate.

And so the reason I got into this field is because of my own journey with it, as do many mental health clinicians and sports psychologists, as you've mentioned.

But I remember my therapist years and years ago giving me homework to sign up for something purely for enjoyment.

And I was like, that's.

That's a weird thing for me to do.

But then as I started to do it, I recognized why that was so beneficial for me.

So I'm something.

Sorry, I should clarify something for enjoyment that I also wasn't.

Didn't know if I was good at it.

And so I signed up for an art class.

I've never been an artsy person.

And so I started to sign up and I asked a friend if she wanted to come with me.

And as I typed this message out, I realized that I. Oh, gosh, I'm going to start getting competitive with that because then I'm going to compare her painting to mine and I want my painting to be a little bit better.

And then I was like, this is why.

This is why my therapist is having me do this.

Because I don't know how to do something.

Just because.

Right.

Like, I am always looking for that extra dopamine release from success and I need to do things that weren't tied to success.

And once I practice that in my brain, that part of my brain that I wasn't used to using, it got a little bit easier.

And I am nowhere near the end of mastering that, but I'm further along than I was that amount of years ago when I set that specific goal.

Yeah, no, those are the things that you do just for you with.

The only purpose is for the experience of it and the learning opportunity.

I have a similar experience with yoga.

I, I love yoga.

And yoga, I have decided, is just for me.

And often people, you know, they're always.

The yoga studios are always pushing, take the teacher course, take the, you know, learn how to.

And I don't want to do that because then I don't want it to be something that I'm going to add to my resume.

I'm going to add.

Yoga is for me.

And I.

Right.

You know, I.

It is my.

It is my common piece and I don't want it to have to mean anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well done.

That's why they say so many artists don't like to sell their art.

Right.

Because then they take the enjoyment out of it because it comes part of that other.

And I think a lot of that ties to what is your definition of success?

Because mine, that I was living by at that point in my life wasn't really healthy.

Right.

I had to re.

Like me going and doing an art class purely for enjoyment, where I'm not submitting anything, where I don't get a class credit for it.

That was success for me to feel rejuvenated so that I could pour into the other things again.

But I was missing the.

The ball with that one for a long time.

So being fulfilled.

Yeah, definitely.

So then that leads to more of just that conversation around mental Flexibility.

And so there are a lot of athletes, I'm sure, that have certain rigid routines and behaviors that are actually starting to hurt their performance instead of help it.

And so in your practice, how do you help athletes build mental flexibility?

And I know that's a loaded question that would probably be kind of hard to answer in a couple minutes, but if you have any insights.

Yeah, it's a hard line.

It's a.

You're right, it's a very fine line because we're always talking about pre performance routines and getting into.

Right.

And being regimented.

And routines are good.

So, you know, they're important.

They, they get you grounded.

They get you fundamentally grounded in your optimal emotional state, optimal mental state, optimal physical state.

But when you get.

So when you cling to them and something goes wrong or something's not accessible or it didn't work, now you start to really get anxious.

So that's why I believe that while we're talking about these routines and while we're talking about following the schedule and the plan equally, I'm very focused on being your best recoverer because that allows that mental flexibility all the time.

It allows you to always have that creative, you know, light bulb.

This didn't go right.

So how am I going to best.

What else can I do?

Right?

So it's, it's, it kind of, it's kind of incorporated through everything I do with everyone that I'm working with.

This ability.

If it, if it, when it's not perfect, how am I going to, you know, what can I do instead of, well, it's not perfect.

I now doing nothing.

I'm freezing.

I'm, you know, I'm, I'm fleeing.

We don't want that.

So I do believe that mental flexibility can be trained with this storytelling of.

It's not always about being perfect.

My schedule, my regimen, I'm setting this, I'm setting these intentions for myself.

And how am I going to best recover when something doesn't go as planned?

Right?

And that's the point of all of our podcast work is how can you navigate times of uncertainty because you can't prevent them.

Right.

And so that last sentence there to me feels like it really fuels that.

And a good friend of mine who did one of the podcast episodes with me, Lenny Waite, she is a sports psychologist, and we did a research paper together on superstitious behaviors in athletes.

And we found that for the athletes that tend to have a predisposition for anxiety, those superstitions that they rely on aren't helpful.

But for the athletes that aren't predisposed to anxiety, engaging in a superstition sometimes does help their confidence, which is what we see in most of the research.

And so I think there's something to that about, you know, for anxious individuals.

We often tell ourselves that we can't tolerate uncertainty and, but the problem with that is we can't, we also can't eliminate uncertainty in every aspect of life.

And so we have to get to a place where we can learn to do that a little bit more.

Yeah, and there's a good story of, you know, correlation versus versus causation.

So when we're, when we're turning, when we're focusing and creating these pre performance programs, when we're creating these routines, it's really important for, for all of us to understand that they are not the cause of our performance.

They're correlated.

They make it easier for us to stay grounded in a specific emotional state.

They make it easier for us to.

But they are not the cause.

So they're therefore they're not, they're related, but they're not completely dependent on those routines.

That's so well said.

I love that.

So that is a new piece that I'm going to start adding into my own vocabulary, correlation versus causation.

Because I've never thought to put it that way.

So.

And when you're in a safe environment you can test that theory.

So if it's in practice, even though I'm, you know, I'm very clear about practice and competition are not the same.

However some you there is simulation.

So sometimes I would, you know, test the theory for today.

You know, we're going to change up your routine and let's, you know, and just sometimes, you know, you experiment, you just dip the toe in and you see, wait a second, that wasn't the exact routine that I normally do every day and my performance was so and so, you know, I still, I still played this way.

So therefore it's correlated, not caused.

Yeah, correlated, not caused.

Excellent.

And so in these kind of last few minutes, I always love to just wrap up a summary of some helpful skills that I know don't necessarily fit in a box.

But when you think about athletes that have anxiety striking.

I know you've gone over some beautiful strategies of mindfulness but just in your overall takeaway, what are some go to tangibles for athletes feeling anxiety that might be hurting their sport performance and then some good maybe tangibles as well for how to create bounce back when they, when someone feels stuck.

Yeah, sure.

Two great Questions.

This is an exercise I've actually done with three athletes this week.

So I'll bring it.

And I named it just, I needed to, I needed to have a visual because one of my, one of the people I was working with was a visual learner.

So I'm now calling it the Swiss cheese exercise.

But in psychology it's the countering technique.

So when you have anxiety, it's usually due to a what if, what if this happens or I can't.

Right.

So some type of self doubt.

So the Swiss cheese is poking holes.

You want to poke holes at it.

So the first question is, how do you know that your self doubt is 100% fact?

You don't.

Well, you don't.

So that's the first where.

And so you have to, you have to ask that question even though we all know the answer.

You don't 100% know that this is going to be certain.

And then the second question is, okay, if I don't know that it's certain, where is there evidence that it actually, actually may not be true?

So I'm going to start, you start poking holes at that doubt.

I'm not always a big believer in the words positive thinking or turning, you know, your friend right side up and creating sunshine and rainbows because that's not totally realistic, especially in high anxious moments.

However, if you do this training or if you have someone who can ask you these questions, how do you know that that is 100% the truth, your self doubt?

I don't.

Well, where is there some evidence in your past, in your present where it may not, it may not be true.

Like we have to be warm, we have to be gentle with ourselves where it may not be true.

And then you start to explore, well, I didn't do it in that event and I actually just learned this new skill and it's been coming along in practice.

So you start now then to arm yourself with counter statements, hence countering.

But it's the Swiss cheese exercise.

You poke holes at your self talk.

I love that.

You also point out that that's a good strategy for negative self talk because it reminds me so much of a thought record and cognitive behavioral therapy which we use for negative self talk.

And when it comes to someone needing to tolerate uncertainty, we take a different approach with that.

But that is such a good rich reminder for individuals that are struggling with that self doubt.

So I love the evidence based strategy that you're using.

Another one that's not so evidence based, but I use it for myself and maybe this isn't like real deep anxiety, but this is more of like it's starting to, starting to creep in.

Haley, it's just your thinking and you don't have to believe every one of your thoughts.

I mean, I was gonna say, we often say if you can name it, you can tame it.

Right.

There you go.

Yeah, I actually didn't make that one up.

An 11 year old gave that to me.

I was once at my girlfriend's and I was having a horrible day, crying, and this 11 year old looked at me and she goes, haley, it's just your thinking.

Oh, precious girl.

That's adorable.

Yeah.

Sometimes the kids, they, they have the most insight above all, you know, we, we can overthink it.

And they're, they're just kind of following Blind leap of faith.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Well, yeah.

Oh, did you have another one?

No.

You were going to bring out.

You, you'd asked me like what would be one go to or.

And I really do, yeah, I really do think this is important for, for every single person.

Usually when people come to me, they obviously are coming to me because they're not happy.

Right.

Things aren't going as planned and they, and they will tell me their mental blocks and they will tell me their challenges.

But before we do any work, I ask them what their strengths are, what makes them give me three things.

No more than three things because then we get confused.

But give me one to three things that make you who you are.

And if they're an athlete, I want technical or tactical.

If you know, for me, my person, I use the words bright, full heart and a strength magnet.

So you come up with your fundamental strengths.

And if I'm really woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or if I'm really doubting something or I really feel anxiety, I do my very best to choose one of my words and just bring me a little bit more of that word.

So if it's bright for me, three things bring me back my brightness.

Connecting with one of connecting with a loved one, nature and music.

So I can put on something that brings me back to my brightness.

So that would be an example.

And then I have these tools with me so I never feel hopeless because I have these programmed, prepared, organized exercises that bring me back to my strength and move.

Moves the needle just a little bit.

I love that.

And so depending on the athlete's learning style that you've observed, for some of them, you might actually get them to map that out.

Right.

Like their three words and then the ways that they can fuel each of those words, because I'm just picturing that on a piece of paper for myself, and I feel like that'd be really helpful.

Yes, absolutely.

And some of them are more of a visual.

Some people don't like to talk.

Some people have really key words, and some people.

It's more of a visual.

Perfectly fine.

Whatever works for you.

So.

But the idea is to have those ready to go in your mental toolbox.

Well, this was so wonderful.

I've learned a lot today in such a short period of time.

But before we have you go, I want to ask, where can people find you?

So if they've listened to this episode and they want to reach out or get in touch with your services, how do they find you?

Yeah, the best place is my website, Dr. Just D R haleyperless.com and that's where you can find out everything about my coaching and speaking.

And as I mentioned on this podcast, I'm going to be creating a free masterclass.

So look out for those when they're coming and every.

Please come.

Yeah.

Please come.

And.

Yeah, but my website is where.

Where everything is.

And you can actually message me directly when you opt in.

And I get those.

So I. I am the one that will respond.

Amazing.

Well, thank you so much for being here today.

We really enjoyed it.

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