Bouncing Back From Mistakes in Sport Performance

Welcome to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We're your hosts, Dr.

Elizabeth Mackinbell and.

Cali Werner, both therapists and individuals that have navigated our own anxiety journeys.

Have you ever wondered how we became a society that is so defined by anxiety?

Tune in as we discuss, learn, and dive into what anxiety is, how we perpetuate it, and how we can stop it.

This podcast will be real, raw, and unfiltered, just like the anxiety that plagues so many of us.

We are here to push boundaries, challenge the status quo, and deep dive into topics that are sure to make you uncomfortable.

If you're ready to step outside of your comfort zone and explore the unfiltered truth that will help you change your entire relationship with anxiety and get back to living your life, you're in the right place.

This is the Anxiety Society Podcast.

We live it, we contribute to it, and together we can change it.

And there's one thing that I need from you.

Can you come through?

Welcome back to the Anxiety Society Podcast.

Today you've got with you Kali Werner and Ryan Judd, clinical director of OCD Institute.

Hey, Callie, how's it going?

Good.

I'm really excited about today's topic.

We are going to be discussing sports psychology, performance, mindset, all of these things that I like to claim as part of my jam.

And you're a tennis player, pickleball player, so you get it too.

Yeah, I'm later in life coming to some of these things.

Yeah.

If I could go back in time, I think I would have played more sports, but it's a super fascinating topic.

And, yeah, you're an expert in this area and have a lot of personal, lived experience as well with this.

And actually, I've never asked you this, but you were trying out for the Olympics, is that right?

Olympic trials.

Olympic trials in the marathon.

Yeah.

And I did that in 2020 wild.

That is so impressive.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

It was a very different part of my journey that I was on, I think even at that time, looking back, I was a clinician at the time, balancing a few things, but I definitely didn't have the relationship with anxiety that I do now, where I'm more in the driver's seat.

And so it's really cool to look back at that moment and see areas that I could grow.

It kind of makes me thirsty to try it again someday, but who knows?

The American record for the women, I think, in the marathon was broken by a 38 year old.

So I have time.

Wow.

I had no idea.

Okay, so running, it's not necessarily like some other sports where you.

You peak at like 21 or something like that.

I think it depends on the distance.

I think for the faster distance.

Yeah, for the faster distance, since it's younger, women also peak later than men.

I see.

But longer distances, you can actually do it older.

Wow, that's really cool.

Yeah.

Super impressive.

And I can imagine that Olympic trials.

Yeah.

Sports psychology and pressure and mindset play a huge role.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's been something that I've been very passionate about for a long time.

And I think it all started when I got my OCD diagnosis when I was in college competing as a D1 athlete and seeing that there was more to it than really what the research was telling us at the time.

And it's neat because I think around the time my passion started to develop, so did other people's.

And so we're starting to see more and more come up out about athletes and mindset and all of the things.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's very cool.

What.

I have a bunch of really cool questions to ask you today related to this, but just some more personal stuff.

So how young were you when you started doing sports and athletics?

Yeah, I played everything under the sun until I was a sophomore in high school.

I started off as a little kid in soccer, but I was very much a, like flower picker, cartwheels, you know, while others were running around.

And then I got more competitive in sports, probably in middle school, and really loved all sports.

I did not like running, surprisingly.

I was more soccer, volleyball, basketball.

And in my freshman year of high school, interestingly enough, my small town.

So our cross country coach was also the second grade, my PE coach from second grade till the end of elementary school.

And he always said, callie, you're going to go out when you're in high school and join my cross country team.

And I didn't.

I signed up for volleyball.

I wanted to play volleyball in college.

And so he called my home voicemail and left a message on my our family phone line and said Callie wasn't here for practice today because he had seen me in elementary school do like the turkey trots and things like that.

And my parents were like, you need to go out.

You need to do that.

And we worked out this plan with like, morning, I would do cross country.

After school, I would do volleyball.

And I'm really glad I did because that paid for my college.

Wow, that's incredible.

That's incredible.

I still would say to this day that volleyball is my favorite sport.

Cross country is something that I do because I'm good at it and I love it now, but it took a long time for me to learn how to love that sport while having the pressure.

Wow.

Gotcha.

Okay.

I didn't know that, though, that you.

But volleyball actually is really the thing you love more than.

I might not be as good at it, but, yeah, I have a blast playing some beach volleyball.

Wow.

That's pretty cool.

Very interesting.

But I forgot we have to do our anxious moment.

Oh, yeah.

So anxious moment is something that we do for every episode.

For those of you that are just tuning in for the first time.

Even though we are clinicians in the field, we really choose to advertise that the anxiety society has come about because we all experience anxiety and we often do things to increase it instead of learn to tolerate it.

And so, Ryan, do you have an anxious moment?

Yeah, actually, this is really kind of on brand for this week's episode.

I went a week ago to Indian Wells Tennis Masters Tournament.

Some of the best, biggest names in tennis are competing there.

It's incredible.

And my anxious moment is I actually met up with a friend from college who we're really close, but we don't see each other that much anymore because we live different parts of the countries and have our own lives.

And I was gonna be staying with her for the weekend, and I started to, like, feel kind of anxious in anticipation of, like, oh, man.

But, you know, are things gonna be the same?

You know, it's been a couple years since I've seen her, and, you know, of course it was totally fine.

It was back, like we were old friends.

But I remember just, like, being on the plane and thinking about it and being kind of anxious and, like, noticing, oh, man, I'm worrying about what's gonna happen.

How am I gonna feel?

Is it gonna be okay?

I feel like so many people can relate.

Like, those nostalgia years are kind of scary to go back to.

And you do.

And you're right.

So many life things have changed.

Yeah.

And yeah, like, you know, is she going to be different?

Is she going to think I'm different?

Are we going to have fun?

Is it going to be better or worse?

You know, you have all those questions in your head, and then, of course, it's, you know, taking you out of the moment.

And you did have fun.

Yeah, we had a lot of fun.

It was great.

It was great.

Mine.

We had a pretty intense work week last week, and yes, you had quite the week at work, Quite an intense work week.

Just lots of moving parts.

And decided that I was going to Take a day off this week.

And the day that I chose was just a day that I didn't have as much going on.

And so it would be easier to just move some appointments and you know, not do certain things.

And I'm a little anxious about taking a day off tomorrow.

Like tomorrow's Wednesday, it's the middle of the week.

And I think that always, it's always hard when you have like a five day work schedule and you cram it into four days.

And so it's funny because I'm doing that to relax more, but it's actually causing me a lot more stress right now.

I tell people this that don't work in, I think, you know, therapists, mental health, but also healthcare in general.

When you, when, when your job involves seeing patients and you decide, oh, I'm going to take a day off.

Well, it's not like other jobs where you know, okay, your workload gets dispersed for the day or like you just catch up later.

When you see patients and you take a day off, they just get rescheduled for another day.

So you're, you're really just kind of like mortgaging your time for later.

Exactly.

And then those next couple days are maybe more stressful because you're making up.

You have to squeeze in and see people.

And so yeah, it's hard for us to get like a true day off.

You have to really commit.

Like, I know there's a week in April, I'm taking off and you have to really commit.

Like I am not scheduling out patients that week and it's tough, but good thing to do.

Yeah, good thing to do and you deserve it.

You had a really intense week last week.

We all have those.

Yeah, awesome.

Okay, so let's jump into the topic today.

You know sports psychology and you know, the role that mental health and mindset and kind of like the way you're understanding the game and your role in it play a part in sports performance.

I think it's all super fascinating and interesting to talk about.

So kind of to start off this question, how much does mindset play a role in athletic performance?

Yeah, it's a huge part.

I think we often don't associate mental game with sport performance, but the mental component is especially like, I know I'm biased because I'm an endurance athlete, but people will always say, yeah, endurance sports are 90% mind and 10% actual physical activity.

And that's not a true statistic.

But I think it's really important to note that there's different types of mindsets that people have.

And we could get really into this and talk about different types of personality traits.

Right.

If there's an athlete that has more type A personality traits versus type B personality traits, you do have to kind of learn what feeds your motivation levels, what feeds your drive for competition.

And it's different for.

For both athletes.

And there's the growth mindset, which is when athletes believe abilities can be developed through effort, practice, and learning.

And we also have a fixed mindset where they believe that talent is static, leading to fear of failure and avoidance of challenges.

And I think sometimes we can build confidence if we think that, well, I was born to be good at this sport.

Right.

But then I also think that for athletes that feel that pressure, if they think, I'm born to be good at this sport, I can't mess up.

You're actually more likely to do that.

Our brains don't process the idea of I can't make a mistake.

Our brains process, make quick steps.

And so mindset has a huge role on how the outcome.

Our performance goes.

Yeah, no, that makes.

That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

I think when you play a sport, you realize how much the mental part of the game is playing a factor.

It's really kind of crazy, right?

Because you can practice something.

And I haven't worked with nearly as many athletes as you, but even some of the few that I have, they'll talk about this where.

And I think anyone who's played a sport especially competitively can relate where you can hit a certain skill or performance in practice, but then when the pressure of the game is on or a match or competition, you're, like, unable to do it.

And, like, you know, physically, you know how to do it, you are capable of doing it, but just the change in setting or the way that your brain is working and thinking about it, your mindset can, like, actually alter your physical ability in that moment.

Yeah.

You get in your own way.

Right.

I think about.

I was in middle school, and most middle schools do this.

You go out for track day, and you try to figure out what sport you're gonna.

Or what event you're gonna be good at in track.

And the very first day, I went and I threw a shot put.

And they were like, callie, you're gonna throw shot put.

Every thr got shorter and shorter, and they changed their minds.

They were like, you're no longer doing that.

And that's because I got, in my own way, I started thinking a lot about the technique and got really in my head.

And I think we have to learn as athletes not to get in our own way.

I also really like to put it in perspective of non athletes.

I've been thinking a lot about talks that I do and give now and there's a certain amount of preparation I have to do.

But if I over prepare, it's not a good talk and that's really scary because I have to get good at just trusting myself to show up and doubt makes it really hard to do that.

Right.

So sometimes if I catch myself over preparing and it's not a good talk, I remind myself, actually I wonder if you could have just lined up.

And that's what we do in sports too.

You can't prepare for every play.

Yeah, totally.

I wonder as someone that has competed a lot, Callie, does it get easier like the actual matches or the competitions?

I'm thinking through the lens of exposure therapy where, okay, if you do something once, it's really difficult, there's a lot of anxiety, you do it again a little bit less, you do it again a little bit less.

Match day, game day, does it ever get easier if you do it enough.

Times, I would say the unhelpful anxiety does.

Right.

So I think in sport, the unique part that doesn't quite fit in the category of exposure therapy is that you have to have something anxiety in order to perform well and you want it to be there.

Right.

And I think when people are getting treatment for us, there's a type of anxiety that they really don't want to be impacting every aspect of their life.

And so in sports, you kind of have to take on this mindset of.

Or the athletes that really succeed are the ones that get good at saying this anxiety is actually excitement.

It's helping me to recognize that my body's about to prepare to do something amazing and trusting that it's part of the process.

So like the first time I ever ran a race, I.

I really did probably think, what in the world is this anxiety?

Right.

But now when I go and run a race, I'm going to be anxious, more anxious if I don't have anxiety because I need to be able to line up and have that adrenaline rush and yeah.

Utilize those skills.

That's very interesting.

So even now, like, even though, I mean, how many races have you run?

Oh gosh, I don't even know.

Tons.

More than a hundred?

Oh yeah.

More than 100.

Wow.

Okay, so but like if you were going to go run a race that you've prepared for in a month or something, the day of the, of the race you'll still feel anxious.

Yeah.

So it's funny, like in high school again, being in a smaller town, it didn't get super competitive until regionals and then state.

And so I, I would be way more excited for those lower key races where I knew there wasn't a lot of competition, but I would still have that nervousness.

But when there was more competition, I would get more anxious.

And I think the way we have to look at it is you prepare all year for these events.

Right.

And you really care about it.

And it isn't something that often athletes will say, I just don't want to feel anxious.

And instead the part that's similar to ERP is we have to change our relationship with anxiety.

Yeah, exactly.

We have to say, no, this is actually a good thing.

It's not a good thing if you're throwing up before every race because you're anxious.

There's some things that aren't helpful to do.

But can you get it in the healthy zone and embrace that anxiety?

Yeah.

Well, that makes sense, right?

If you change your relationship to it and you say, hey, the anxiety showing up is good, I want this, then number one, you're probably going to be even just a little bit less anxious to begin with because then you don't have that alarm on the alarm when the anxiety is going off.

You're not like, oh, this is a bad thing, this is dangerous.

In fact, you're kind of welcoming it.

So it probably just is adaptive and healthy instead of really making causing problems for you.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a really good cyclist and he, he says that every time he goes to compete, he starts to feel those jitters and he won't even use the word anxiety.

He just says, oh, I'm excited.

And he's phenomenal at what he does because that's the mindset he has.

Yeah, that's super interesting.

That's.

Yeah.

So really the perspective that you take and in cbt, we would, you know, say the beliefs that you have about your anxiety or the interpretation, the way you're interpreting your anxiety, what it means, is it dangerous versus is it helpful?

Is for sure going to affect the way that you feel about it and the way you feel in general.

So that's really very interesting.

What about motivation?

What role does motivation play in athletic performance?

Yeah, there's different types of motivation and I think this will get us kind of going towards that direction of type A personality versus type B personalities.

But we have intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

Intrinsic motivation is, I'm Doing this because it feels good to do it, because I like to do this, because I want to do this, I like to achieve.

It brings me joy.

Extrinsic motivation is maybe I want to get a scholarship, I want to win that medal, I want to do these things to make my parents proud.

And for motivation that's extrinsic, we often feel more pressure.

So an anxious athlete that already has a predisposition for negative anxiety, having all these extrinsic motivators actually isn't very helpful.

It's only going to further increase the anxiety and make it harder for them to have the right mindset going into performance.

Intrinsic motivation is what we want to build more of in these athletes is.

Can.

Can you do this?

Because this brings you joy because you're competing against yourself instead of.

And then we can get really into these, like different types of goals that are set too.

Right.

So athletes that set more outcome goals are putting more pressure on themselves.

The outcome goals would be like, I want to get that scholarship, or I have a goal to beat the person next to me.

And if we have more performance goals, it's setting a goal within yourself.

So I want to be my last time.

And then we have process goals.

Those are the in the moment goals.

Like, I'm going to swing my arms faster when I get to this part of the race.

And I think, just like anybody, if we're overanalyzing the whole picture, right, how am I going to get that scholarship?

There's so much I have to do before I get to that point.

That's going to feel kind of debilitating versus, okay, can you just focus on.

Maybe I can shave 5 seconds off this time.

Performance goal.

If that's still too triggering.

Could you even start with just performance goals?

I'm going to work on quick steps and then building up on those creates more performance goals, which creates more outcome goals.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

And you know, I think a lot of people get into trouble when they confuse what they have control over with what they don't.

And I think what you're talking about, these outcome goals, beating someone else, getting a scholarship, those are all things that are outside of your control.

Right?

Like whether the school decides to give you a scholarship is ultimately the school's decision.

You know, the admissions committee, not you as an individual.

You being able to beat your competitor.

It depends on your competitor.

Not so much.

I mean you as well.

But really, you can't control how the other person performs.

Really.

So.

So making sure that the person's focused on things that they actually have control over is way more helpful than like focusing on something that's completely out of the realm of their control.

Yeah, exactly.

It's something that we all do, especially when we see ourselves.

Like if there's an anxious athlete, this is where I kind of tie in CBT and sport performance strategies.

Like, I don't really like a super anxious athlete doing visualization strategies right away because if they're not honing in on their rumination or able to utilize the appropriate strategies there, all they're going to do is picture all these terrible things happen every time they try to visualize.

But visualization is a great strategy to help athletes get in that right mindset, to build motivation to do really well.

But they have to get to a point where they can actually handle those coping skills.

And so I think it's really important to do the right steps at the right time.

Yeah.

And let me ask you this.

This is something that comes up a lot in therapy, but I'm wondering if it's relevant too for athletes.

But is motivation a feeling?

Is that what you're looking for for people?

I think yes and no.

I think oftentimes our feelings can lead us astray.

We know that as anxiety specialists.

But I also think motivation can be built in the appropriate way by utilizing tangible skills.

Right.

I think it's not something that necessarily has to be innate.

If you have a lot of extrinsic motivators, you can work really hard on strategies to build more intrinsic motivators.

So.

Yeah, makes sense.

Yeah, I think that that's a good, good answer.

Accurate description.

What about, you know, people, different athletes with different approaches, you know, more perfectionistic athletes versus somebody who's inherently maybe more laid back, you know, would you take a different approach if you're working with that person?

Yeah.

This is one of my favorite topics to cover and go over.

I think when we think of a type A athlete, we think of someone that's more goal oriented, more highly self critical, maybe kind of just intense.

Right.

They thrive in structure and they, they do really well with that and they might emphasize perfection at times and that can get in the way.

Whereas we think of a type B athlete.

These athletes are often relaxed, adaptable, less prone to stress, but they may struggle to have motivation or focus or urgency.

And so we're going to approach these athletes in different ways.

That's why a lot of the research is coming out now that actually different athletes respond better to different coaching styles.

And so when we think about A perfectionistic type A athlete, we want them to focus more on process over perfection, more on the process over those outcome based goals.

We really want to focus on some self compassion relaxation strategies, balancing them to challenge or balancing recovery.

Because I think oftentimes I use a terrible analogy, but I tell athletes we have all these jars that we have to fill and if you're only watering one jar, like your sport performance jar, that jar is going to break.

If you are recognizing that I have a social jar, that I have a family jar, that I have a hobby jar, and that all of those jars actually help our sport jar to be balanced so that we can actually perform well, you're going to do better.

But these athletes often think recovery is a waste of time, right?

Or that if I take this time off, I might not have as, as good of a season.

Whereas if, no, if there's an athlete that, that's truly buying into that recovery, letting their body do what it needs and unplugging right, then they're going to do better.

And I think we think of that in the clinical world all the time.

I've taken holidays where I've checked my email the whole time and I didn't come back feeling refreshed and I wasn't a better clinician because of it versus the holidays that I truly set my phone aside or my email aside and I said it's not good for me to check this now if I want to be a good clinician later.

And I think that takes a lot of self discipline and reminders for a perfectionistic athlete to challenge that.

Yeah, yeah, it's so fascinating.

I mean, I'm thinking of things like I read a study or news article about they had kids who were learning to play the piano and they said, okay, this group's going to practice for two hours straight or three hours straight.

And then this other group is going to practice for 30 minutes and then take a nap and then practice for 30 minutes.

And they found that the group that took the nap actually did better because, and they think, they don't know really why, but the theory is, okay, maybe the nap, their brains like built some neurons and you know, put this, organize some things together and then like taking that break and coming back, they actually did better.

You know, stepping away from something and giving your brain, your body time to like process, integrate, learn, recover, heal and then you can, you can do it better.

Right?

Which makes so much sense, right?

When we, we've talked a lot on the podcast about intense emotions, like if we feel angry with someone about something, it's not really a great time to send that person an email.

Right.

Like you, you need to take time to maybe write out the email, to process it a little bit.

But the next day go back and say, do I really want to send this email?

Maybe I want to change some of it.

And I think that's because we aren't the best on our feet when anything is elevated or heightened.

And if you've worked yourself up because you're frustrated about a skill that you're not learning, more likely than not, if you keep trying to force yourself to do that skill without a break, you're only going to stay frustrated.

Yeah, yeah.

Very fascinating.

I wanted to, I put an example for a tennis player because I thought you would like that.

So I, a type a tennis player, let's say that their challenges are overanalyzing mistakes, struggling with self criticism, and getting stuck in some of that perfectionism.

So a solution for this athlete would actually be to encourage more neutral thinking.

And so instead of saying, I suck, they might say, that shot was off, but I can adjust.

Another thing that we often hear our patients saying this when we're trying to incorporate CBT strategies is, well, can you just reframe that into being more positive?

And I think often they say, yeah, I'm doing that, but I don't buy it.

Right.

And something that I really like about sports psychology is that I find that there's, like, some middle steps you can take in between that I can plug into cbt.

And so I might have them just have some prompts like, okay, well, if you don't buy, like, I have this gymnast right now.

If you don't buy that you actually are a really good gymnast, could you, instead of trying to convince yourself that every time you have a negative thought out there, could you say quick steps?

Like, could you have a prompt to remind you to get back into what you were doing?

We call that, like the bounce back.

Right.

Instead of focusing so much on that mistake.

Because they can buy into quick steps, they might not buy into, I'm a great gymnast.

Right.

And so that might be the first step that they need to practice to get better at really truly believing that they are a good gymnast again.

And I feel like sometimes we can get so stuck in, well, you're just not doing it long enough or you just need to keep doing it.

Right.

And there might be a middle step to take.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And yeah, like, if that's effective for people and that can help them get back into the right Mindset, a helpful mindset, or more effective practice, then yeah, it really makes sense.

Yeah.

Michael Jordan, he said, well, he missed over 9,000 shots and lost nearly 300 games, but said, I failed over and over again in my life and that is why I succeed.

And so with that, I think it's, it's important to remember that the greatest athletes aren't necessarily perfect at what they do.

They just recover from their mistakes faster.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And you know, that's interesting.

I'm thinking about the concept of resiliency as we use it in therapy and psychology where a lot of people, I have to explain this to patients I work with, because you have an idea.

Oh, resiliency means like being strong, but really if we're being very specific, it means how quickly do you return to baseline?

So everyone's going to get knocked down at some point, whether it's mental health or sports performance, creative stuff, relationships.

We know that's going to happen.

We should normalize and expect that.

But building resiliency is saying, okay, last time when I got knocked down, it took me, you know, an hour a day to get back to where I was.

Okay, this next time around, can it be instead of an hour, 45 minutes, that's building resilience.

You get like what you're saying, being able to bounce back more quickly each time and getting back to baseline to a more healthy mindset.

Yeah.

And I, I'd love for you to speak to the more clinical side of this too, because I think oftentimes athletes or non athletes also get stuck in over processing.

And so I think about, you know, we, we say that, well, mistakes are feedback, not failure.

But I think another thing that happens on the, the field or the court or the track is athletes make a mistake and they're trying to evaluate that mistake.

Right.

Then there's a time and place to do that.

Right.

A football player has to go back and watch film.

But if they're trying to evaluate that mistake right then and there and really figure out, why did I do that wrong?

What could I do differently?

They're gonna miss the next play.

And so I feel like we see that in the clinical field too.

Patients often getting so stuck in the mistake and instead of being able to move forward.

Yeah.

Especially with perfectionism, I think people oftentimes, if you ask them, like, why are you doing these things?

There's some belief tied to, well, if I stop, if I don't think about my mistakes, then I'll become careless or I won't get better and they really believe that.

And so, okay, if you have that belief that this is helping you in some way, even though it's very obvious to everyone else that it's actually making it worse, but you really believe that you haven't stopped and looked at it and made a decision, is this helping me or is this actually.

Then you're going to keep doing it.

And so, yeah, with athletes too, this makes a lot of sense that you might say, okay, in the moment, if you're stuck analyzing this and the game is still going on, do you feel like you're better able to play or do you feel like it's maybe making it harder and then really have them or even set up a behavioral experiment, can you pay attention the next time?

Like, I want you to really think about the mistake and let's see if you perform better or worse in the moment and probably they'll get the real time feedback and realize, oh, this isn't helping me.

Yeah, yeah, well.

And as you're saying this, I feel like we have clinicians listening and they're probably just rolling their eyes saying this is worry time.

And you're right, it is.

But there's off.

Like if you're explaining that to someone that's not an athlete, they might not have the buy in.

And I think a lot of the work that we do is wording some of these things in a way that it resonates.

Exactly.

And for an athlete, that might resonate a little bit differently if you use it that way.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's effective?

What's going to actually help you get what you want?

Let me.

You know, this brings up a question as you're talking earlier about like coaching styles with athletes.

And you know, some coaches are really hard and tough and have a real strong.

The best way to help people perform if you see someone with potential is to just to be really hard and have high expectations.

What do you think about coaching style in terms of should we be always encouraging and super nice and positive with people or is it helpful sometimes to be pretty firm or.

Yeah, I feel like I look back on my own history in sports and I played basketball one year and I loved my basketball coach, Coach Savoy, and the coaching style on the basketball team, looking back, was a little bit more authoritative, a bit more firm.

And in that setting, I think it kind of needed to be.

But I personality wise, that wasn't great for me.

I look back and I think I was really nervous for every game.

I also wasn't a great basketball player, so that probably had something to do with it.

But yeah, I would get super anxious and I was so afraid of getting yelled at and that got in my way a little bit.

And I think we have to find this middle ground of, I was a kid, I hadn't really done any therapy, much therapy at all at that point yet.

But that was something I needed to work on too.

Right.

And I think that the coach, we can't expect a coach to completely accommodate one athlete when it's a single coach with a team full of athletes.

But I, I think there could be this meet in the middle of.

Okay, let me really get to know my athletes, right?

Like, let me get to know their personalities and, and try to adjust maybe a few things at the end of the day.

I think it would be amazing if most coaches had some like transformational leadership styles.

But I, I, I feel that there's gotta be a balance of firmness because there's athletes that need that too.

Right.

When you think more of the, the type B athletes, ways to motivate them are completely different from the type A athletes, right?

They, with type B athletes, you need to make some kind of competition within these things.

Right.

Okay, last time maybe you were a little late here.

If you can, if you can be on time these next few times, maybe we can do like a really fun game at the end of the drill, right?

Make it a competition so that they can build that and build that focus and all that.

To say, I think it's hard, it's hard to find what the appropriate answer is.

But I think the athletes need to be working on some self reflection and meeting in the middle.

But also coach should get to know each and every of their athletes.

Makes sense.

Yeah, it makes sense.

People are different and you kind of gotta, if you're a good coach, you're like a good therapist.

You're spending time to try to understand the people you're working with and what is effective for them and what they need.

Makes sense.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, what about when we see famous athletes that have like little superstitious rituals that they do before a performance or a game?

What do you think about that?

Is that helpful or not?

Yeah.

So I did a research study with Lenny Waite, Dr.

Lenny Waite.

She came on and talked about the post Olympic blues on an episode of Anxiety Society.

And we worked on like a survey for athletes and they all answered questions about superstitious behaviors.

And I think it was called the pre performance ritual was the name of that paper.

But basically we found that there are what most of the research Says is that these superstitious behaviors lead to more confidence for a lot of athletes.

And I think what it didn't really look at is the anxious athletes.

Right.

So what we found for athletes that have more of a predisposition for anxiety, those superstitious behaviors actually make you more anxious, more out of control.

And that makes sense.

Right.

If you're feeling like, well, if I can just do this enough times, maybe I'll win the game.

We actually need to be teaching those athletes that maybe you can play the game without knowing if you're going to win the game.

Right.

And so.

People with anxiety are like, did I do the ritual right?

Yeah, exactly.

Did I do it long enough?

Yeah.

And so I just, just personally, when I work with athletes, I'm a really big proponent of pre performance routines.

Really big, let's nix superstitious behaviors.

And that's something I'll be open and candid about.

Like that the superstitious behaviors was the last part of my OCD I was willing to let go.

I mean, I had a race two Decembers ago and I caught myself getting stuck in the shower trying to figure out the right time to wash my hair because I had this superstition that if I had any oil in my hair, it would slow me down.

And that was like less than two years ago.

Right.

And so that was the final race where I let go a lot of these routines.

And so I think athletes probably that have been really reliant on those.

It's tough work to get rid of, but it is so empowering when you can stand at the starting line of a race or a performance and know that you didn't do that and still do the race.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like the best feeling in the world.

So pre performance routines would be like stretching or I'm going to eat a good breakfast because that sits well on my stomach.

Actually.

Things that have a purpose over.

I'm going to high five that same teammate that gives me good luck every time I go out there.

Yeah, makes sense.

And probably the routines are somewhat flexible.

It can't be like, oh my gosh, they don't have this type of peanut butter, so I can't do this.

You have to be able to cope with flexibility.

Exactly.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Okay, so pre performance routines, not rituals or superstitions.

Yeah, pre performance routines over superstitions.

Got you.

What about ways that athletes can improve their performance?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of different kind of just to go over summary of some of those things.

That would be really helpful.

We want athletes to have a short term memory about their mistakes.

Right.

And easier said than done, but trying not to process those mistakes right then and there to allow yourself to focus your attention on the game or the things that are important to you.

Because often when you do that, I think that's a lot like values based living.

Right.

You, you're able to see, wow, I really was able to continue that game and it didn't taint the rest of my performance.

Whereas athletes often get stuck in their head if they make a mistake and it makes it hard to pull out of.

And so for them to see that they can recover, that's really empowering.

Building more intrinsic motivation by building confidence, by reminding yourself that you've got other jars to water in your life and really learning to love your sport.

I think a lot of athletes feel like they can't love their sport and be the best at it.

And you absolutely can.

When you look at the people that are playing in their sport long term or that are not burned out, it's because they find balance in it.

Yeah, you have to dedicate a lot of time, but it also can't really be a full part of your identity if you don't want to crash and burn later and all that to say, I think that's a big reason why we talk about the post Olympic blues a lot now.

There's a documentary solely on that and the issue with some Olympians committing suicide.

And it's not uncommon to have so much of your time dedicated to a sport to make that your identity.

But at some point you're not going to be able to continue doing that sport.

And you want to know that you're going to be okay, that you have a purpose in more than one thing.

Totally makes sense.

Makes sense.

What about athletes building confidence in themselves?

How do, how do, how do athletes do that?

I think positive self talk is really important.

I think practicing that bounce back method of can I can.

I recognize that that mistake helped me learn something.

I also am a big advocate for reminding ourselves that if we're going to choose to play a sport, we have to pay our dues.

And that just means that there's going to be mis.

You have to accept that you're going to make mistakes.

If you can't do that, then being an athlete isn't for you.

Right.

The best athletes in the entire world have made mistakes along the way and that's why they're the best athletes, because they've learned from those.

And so I will Tell really young athletes we've got to celebrate those mistakes.

Not physically out on the field, you make a mistake, you don't have a party.

But more like, oh yeah, I made that mistake great, I'm learning.

Right.

That's an opportunity for me to learn.

Or pick the best athlete that you look up to and say, hey, I just made a mistake just like they did.

Right.

Have a new meaning, a new relationship with mistakes.

And that's going to build confidence.

Because I think what hurts confidence more than anything is making that mistake means something that isn't true.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

Going back to the beliefs about what does it mean to make a mistake?

Is it normal, is it not?

Does it mean something bad about me examining somebody's beliefs around those things?

I think I forget who it was.

Somebody was telling me about a documentary they saw about some group of elite athletes.

It might have been tennis players or something like that.

But somebody was saying, when you're a top athlete, you lose so much because you're playing against other top athletes.

So no matter what sport you're in, if you're going to rise to the top, that means you have to play other top players.

Well, guess what, they're extremely good.

So you're going to lose.

Even though to the outside you look like the best, you're actually going to lose a lot over the course of your career.

And so you have to get really good.

Probably if you're going to be good, you have to get really good at learning how to lose and learning how to make mistakes and work with defeat in a helpful way instead of like letting it crush you or internalizing that and it making you.

Making it harder for you to succeed.

Yeah, I love that.

And I feel like we've all had that wake up call in some areas of our lives that it's kind of making me laugh because I used to play beach volleyball at this place called Wakefield Crowbar and it's like actually my favorite place to play.

They have a B league and an A league.

So if you start on a new league, you'll want to play B.

Right.

And we had a great time.

My team got pretty confident.

And there's another beach volleyball player place called Third Coast.

And I am telling you like the most professional, like these people all played in college post collegiately.

Some played at like an elite level.

And we went there and we got our butts kicked like it was horrible.

And I realized in that moment that I need to work on letting sports be fun when I'm not good at them.

Right.

And that.

But if you think about it, that is such an incredible skill for all of us to have.

Can we work on enjoying something even when we're not succeeding at it?

And if we can't, that's, like, a hard question we need to ask ourselves.

What do we need to work on to be able to do that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And being able to do that is a huge win.

I mean, that's a huge mental feat that you've been able to do if you're able to go and kind of, like, adjust that mindset to going from kind of a distorted one to a really healthy one.

Right, right.

Yeah.

It was so funny.

I mean, like, these athletes, they had.

This is a social league.

Right.

And so my husband and his friend and another friend of mine and I, we were all going to play.

My husband and his friend are drinking beers on the side.

Everyone else has their, like, Gatorade or elite electrolytes.

And I'm like, why aren't people having fun?

But, yeah, I think it was, like, a big moment when I kind of got done with that, and I said, I did not have fun that entire time.

And of course, like, losing isn't fun, but I should have sought out some more fun moments in that to remind myself that that.

That builds strength and resiliency along the way.

Totally.

Yeah.

I was going to ask you, you're a tennis player, and did you start with pickleball or did you go tennis?

Pickleball, Tennis.

No.

Well, I played tennis very briefly when I was a little younger and liked it, but just was very unserious.

Okay.

Yeah.

You're getting super into it now, right?

I'm super into it now.

And, yeah, I wish I had been more serious.

But, yeah, I started playing pickleball and really liked it.

And then I would see people play tennis, and I was like, man, this looks even more.

Like, there's more skill involved, there's more technique.

And sure enough, it's true, it's a very difficult game.

And, like, serving in tennis is, like, such a complicated thing, but.

Yeah.

Do you.

Have you played in any competitions, like, official competitions?

I did pickleball.

I did a couple of tournaments, but tennis.

Not yet.

I'm, like, still working.

I'm going to.

But it's.

It's.

There is a mental block there, because I know, like, it's just hard.

Yeah.

Like, you want to.

I, like, I feel like I have these beliefs about, okay, I have to be a certain.

I have to be at a certain level before I can come to that.

Yeah.

Even Though I could actually walk onto some, like, beginner leaks and probably have a good time and improve.

But there's like this voice in my head being like, no, you need to be blah, blah, blah before you can do that.

No, I get it.

Yeah, that's the mental block is real with that.

But when you play for fun and you go into a game just so listeners know, Ryan is one of the coolest as a cucumber people that I know just holds himself very well, I think, even when he's stressed, does not appear to be.

And so you make the clinic have a very calm vibe when you're around.

I hate that I just used the word vibe.

But.

But all that to say, do you get frustrated when you lose?

Oh, yeah.

This is when.

So when I first started playing tennis, like, you know, five or six months ago, I took a private lesson.

So I played a couple times with a group and then I took a private lesson with a coach.

And I really like, he's good, but I was like, having a bad.

It was like a bad lesson.

Like, not because of him, because I just wasn't.

I wasn't doing things right.

And he was being like, kind of firm, but not like a jerk, but he was like, just being firm.

Like, you're not doing this.

Like, I'm telling you to do it.

You're not doing it.

And I was getting so upset, like, like, I don't think he could see it.

I was hiding it.

But like, internally I was like, I have not felt this intense emotion and like, just being this upset in so long.

When the lesson was over, I went and got in my car and I literally, I was like, I want to drive my car into like a building and just like break things.

Like, I was so upset.

And that's when I realized I was like, man, this is why sports are so good for kids because you are going to have those days and you have to learn how to manage that.

Like, you have to like those big emotions you have.

And that's so important because in life so many things are going to happen.

But yeah, I couldn't remember the last time I was that upset about anything in life.

But that one tennis lesson did that.

Yeah, it's wild.

But so much self reflection that that's an area that maybe I would grow in or even just how he presented it might be an area he can grow in too.

But I would say sports are so great for that.

They cause you to do a lot of self reflecting and, and growing.

And that wasn't a fun feeling.

For you.

Right.

And so it's like, oh, I want that to change.

Just like me not winning is like, I still want to be able to enjoy games when I'm not winning and I'm not there yet.

Yeah.

No.

Well, yeah, it's probably like a lifetime.

Yeah.

Commitment to work on.

Yeah.

I mean, I definitely.

I remember feeling proud of myself because, you know, there's the voice in your head being like, well, you can just quit.

You can just like, if you're not that good at this, if you're not, like, you don't have, you know, talent, naturally just walk away.

You can find something.

And I remember thinking that and I was like, no, I'm going to go back tomorrow and try again.

It'll be hard.

And then I was really proud of myself.

I was like, wow, that was really tough.

And I worked through it.

But also, I'm a therapist.

Yeah, but that's so important and validating for people to hear.

You're a human.

That's.

We're all working on our own growth.

And I'm going to set a goal for myself because we are about to sign up for a beach volleyball league again.

And my husband and I have gotten to a point where we can play on the same team together.

And I will.

That's just for listeners to hear that.

That's growth for us because we had an incident, an instant, like, I don't know, a couple years, a few years back where we were playing on a team, it was six on six and he does not.

He's better at it now.

Would not call the ball and so I would go for it and we collided and I yelled at him more than, like, I've yelled at someone in a really long time and they separated us and made us go on different courts.

Um, and so since then, we've played on a league a few different times together.

Our communication style has gotten better.

But I think my next goal for us is on the nights that we lose because that will happen and we'll be on our four before league together.

We're not going to ride home in silence.

We're going to talk about other enjoyable things because we need to make losing an enjoyable experience.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great goal.

Is he super competitive?

He is, yeah.

We're both really competitive and so we don't.

We often are set on separate teams for that reason whenever we're playing any game.

But I think that we both like to compete.

Neither of us like to lose, but we do better than what we did before.

Still room to grow, though.

Growth.

That's growth.

That's growth.

So all that to say, I think for listeners, try to.

If you're an athlete or a coach, if you're a non athlete, I think it would be really important to try to see how some of these skills would fit into your life.

Because we talk about positive reframing, we talked about having a short memory with mistakes, but the importance of having a memory with mistakes.

Right.

Being able to go back and reflect on some of those things, but having a bounce back to get back in the game and not have that mental block take over.

Also knowing what type of personality you have and what you need to build your own motivation.

If you are someone that is more type A, you.

You know that you might have some perfectionism.

Can you challenge that?

Can you incorporate more fun into your sport?

If you're more type B and you're more relaxed and just kind of go with the flow, can you set up accountability partners?

Can you make sure that you make it something that's competitive to build or drive your motivation?

And I think we've got a lot of areas we can learn on and off the field with that.

So.

Yeah.

And one, one takeaway that you left me with that I think is definitely going to stick with me, is process goals over outcome goals.

Yeah, yeah.

Process goals over outcome goals.

Those in the moment things that you can do are a lot easier for our brains to comprehend.

And so if you can make those really small, quick goals that you can accomplish in the moment, then you can set more performance goals, which is not comparing yourself to someone else.

Performance goals are just based off of kind of challenging yourself to do better each time and then those outcome goals will follow.

Yeah.

You against you.

You against you.

That's right.

Well, thanks for being with us today, Ryan.

Thanks for the interview.

We appreciate all of our listeners and we can't wait to see you next time.

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